courtesy would demand

[rm]

I am a snob and an elitist, and I am not inclined to be apologetic for it.

I do not, for the record, give a damn about how much money you have, your social class of origin, or your race, ethnicity or religion.

I do, however, give a damn about how you comport yourself in public, how you communicate and how you perceive and execute your place in the world.

I have absurdly high standards that I, myself, largely do not live up to -- I curse too much, speak informally often, and am a sloppy typist. Read that again. Can you pick out the key word? It's sloppy.

Sloppiness and laziness in these sorts of realms make me as insane as cowardice does -- BECAUSE I THINK THEY ARE THE SAME THING. I loathe it in myself and I loathe it in others. it's as if peopel are afraid to stretch outside of their comfort zones, to stand out, to be called a nerd or a conformist or whatever, simply for bhaving with appropriate grace. It boggles my mind. I'm often rather outrageous and reasonably appropriate to most occassions, and I know when to play and when not to. It's not that hard, and it's not that expensive ($10 tango dress I wore to La Boheme, hello). That peopel could possibly be embarassed by speaking or behaving properly boggles my mind, but I suppose we are all fourteen forever sometimes.

Someone in the conversation on the New Yorkes forum didn't understand why saying "Me and Heidi went to the movies" was not just grammatically wrong, but rude. While I'm sure I make this mistake often, it's a bad habit, and I shouldn't do it. The difference between "Me and Heidi" and "Heidi and I" here is huge -- it's not just grammatical, and it's not, as the poster implied, a matter of pretension. It's a matter of courtesy, not just to Heidi, but the world at large.

Also in this discussion people raised a number of social niceties as outdated courtesies, and I mustdisagree.

Traditionally, a man should walk curbside to a woman -- to shield her from traffic, splattering mud and the like. While the gender basis of this is certainly outmoded, it is not outmoded to walk curbside of a paramour, friend, child or family member towards which you feel protective.

Traditionally a man removes his hat when going inside. If you are wearing the sort of hat this would apply to, regardless of your gender, REMOVE YOUR HAT. Not doing so is disrespectful to your hosts -- hosts can include people you are visiting, the owners of an establishment you are patronizing or those who organized a social event in a public place. Removing your hat indicates that you are staying, making eye contact and a full-participant in events.

Traditionally, a man opens and holds a door for a lady. Are you playing host in a social situation? Then open the door for your guest. If it's not that type of scenario, at least hold the door after you so it doesn't shut in someone's face.

Person after person in that thread asked how not dressing up for an event is rude, saying it should be behavior that matters. The choice of clothes to honor, dishonor or disregard an event IS A BEHAVIOR. Even if I or others disagree with your choices, choose consciously.

I come by my snobbery honestly. I went to private school, studied French and Latin from the time I was very young, Spanish later, and persued classical Greek in college. I learned about art, music and dance, social behavior, and perhaps more regrettably, social roles.

I am also not wealthy, nor are my parents. We've much more than many and much less than as many -- in New York it's a strange plae to be. Neither of my parents has a college degree. My father's father was a shoemaker. My snobbery is not about cash or origin, nor is it about entitlement or the idea that some people are just innately better than others by virtue of the social status that happens to be conferred upon them at birth.

My snobbery is about the idea that education, grammar, abd social graces are not beyond anyone inately. Certainly, economic class often has a huge role in what people have access to or time to worry about, and that's a shame -- and yes, I, of course, think putting food on your family's table comes before grammar or owrrying about what you wear to the theatre.

But if you have time to argue with me on LJ about how you consciously choose to have poor grammar because it doesn't matter and it's pretentious? Or you think it's unreasonable to be asked to dress neatly (just neatly, not even up, just neatly) for an event most people pay at least $100/ticket to see? Then you do have the time and resources to choose to comport yourself better, and you choose not to, and I will not be an apologist for my snobbery in such cases.

Quite frankly, more people should be snobs. Neither standards nor idealism are a sin.

The subject line, by the way, is from the very beginning of a ridiculously long thing called Decorum I had to memorize as an Alpha Theta Beta pledge.

And for the newer people here, yes, I am totally for real.

Comments

[rahalia-cat.livejournal.com]

On the subject of politeness and courtesy, three things that I always strive to do (and that annoy the hell out of me when others don't) are:

1. Remove my shoes when entering someone's house for a call that would necessitate anything other than standing in the hallway for a few minutes

2. Walk in single file along a narrow pathway if with someone else and another person approaches from the other direction

3. Walk on the kerb-side if another person approaches from the other direction, but only if I'm the one facing the oncoming traffic

That last might seem a trifling annoyance, but I have a personal terror of being close to the kerb with traffic coming up behind me, especially on roads where trucks and buses etc are, and I think it's only right and fair that it's the person who can see what's coming up that should take kerb-side, rather than the person who can't.

No. 2 on my list is probably what makes me seethe the most, and we've been getting it more and more here as the country opens up to migrant workers from eastern Europe. I don't know why, but they seem to have no conception of politeness when it comes to walking in single file. I've had to step down into the road before now because a group of three people have continued to walk before me, shoulder-to-shoulder, like a brick wall.

[pecunium.livejournal.com]

Being of an old-fashioned bent (which is to say I walk curbside, and wear hats, of the sort one ought to touch, or doff, as occasion requires) I point out that in places of public business, the removing of the hat isn't requisate.

If I go into a shop, I may keep my hat on my head. I can certainly leave it on when in a mall, between shops.

I pay attention to this because I have lost hats in such situations, for fault of laying it down while perusing something.

TK

p.s. I once, after class, corrected one of my profs for mis-correcting a fellow student (who had said, he gave cards to "x" and me). The next class he teased me (to the confusion of the others) by asking me if he'd properly used an "I" construction.

[amberite.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I'll tend to differ on the hat thing, just because hats of the sort I like are hardly worn by anyone anymore, and when I'm wearing a hat it doesn't mean that I'm necessarily outdoors or going anywhere. It usually means I don't want to lose it. I've lost about five really good hats by setting them down at times when my cognitive function wasn't up to snuff, and because hardly anyone wears these things, nobody keeps a hatstand.

Start bringing hatstands back into style, and I'll start taking my hat off. Until then, it's either on my head or in my lap being fiddled with, and if I need my hands for something else, that's probably on my head. :-) Being mannerly in this case requires a prop, which is a safe, easily remembered place to put the hat when taking it off.

I do frequently walk on the curbside when out with John, and hold doors for people!

[heron61.livejournal.com]

In a word yes.

Traditionally, a man should walk curbside to a woman -- to shield her from traffic, splattering mud and the like. While the gender basis of this is certainly outmoded, it is not outmoded to walk curbside of a paramour, friend, child or family member towards which you feel protective.

Thank you for putting it this way. I am fairly intolerant of both old-style sexist "politeness" and also of the modern ethic that has to often replaced it, where people are simply exceptionally rude. I give up my seat on the bus to the elderly or the handicapped regardless of gender and I also do my best to hold doors for such people, as well as for people burdened with many parcels.

When I go to shows in Washington DC with my parents, I am often mildly horrified by the degree to which clothing and appearance are gendered, compared to how people dress at similar events in both Portland and Seattle. In DC, I am often the most eccentrically dressed person in the audience, and I tone things down considerably in the presence of my parents. Becca often comes in a close 2nd, simply by virtue of simply wearing nice pants, a sport jacket, a nice button-down shirt, and her vividly dyed red hair), but I'm not one bit happier with people wearing jeans and t-shirts to such events.

All too often, perfectly reasonable and fully justified attempts to avoid sexism and stereotypes result in people dressing like total slobs. Formality, grace, and a well-groomed appearance need not be sexist or even classist in any fashion. However, it does require attention, and that is all to rare these days.

As for habits of speech and writing, I am saddened by the lack of care most people pay to the ways they use language. I remain uncertain if most public schools really are sufficiently irresponsible as to let people graduate with little or know knowledge of proper grammar or usage, or if almost everyone knows such things but simply doesn't care.

[rm.livejournal.com]

at that happens here too. I sort of shout at epople about it, which is well within my rights, but doesn't really do much to contribute to society.

the first I observe in homes where people do the same. Most people here don't as far as I can tell.

[rm.livejournal.com]

Thank you for that correction. When put in temrs of malls, of course it makes total sense. My mother, because of where she works (a well-known jewlery store with high-end items) has very long exchanges with her customers and has mentioned teh hat thing can be irksome in those circumstances, but that is hardly a generalized shopping environment but more consultative.

[feyandstrange.livejournal.com]

In better days, if a customer was going to be browsing for any length of time, the store clerks would take a man's hat and/or coat to hang up, as necessary. (And a lady's coat, packages, and so forth.) As such services are no longer offered, I think it's acceptable for a gentleman to keep his hat on while in a store, especially if he is only there for a little while. If it's a store which offers shopping baskets, they make a good place to put the hat.

And I applaud your handsome concern for such things.

[feyandstrange.livejournal.com]

As above, on the hats-while-shopping; ask for an extra shopping bag in which to place the hat and carry it.

There is a sad lack of hatstands in this world, probably because hats get stolen from them.

A lady's hat was usually pinned to her head, and so she does not have to take it off; men's hats, I try to wear by men's rules, but I am lazy, and my hats are frequently to cover for the fact that my chronic illness has kept me from brushing or washing my hair enough recently.

[alabastard.livejournal.com]

Ahhh, nothing to add but thank you for speaking My mind. It's rare to find souls who come from a similar place as I do on so many issues.

[feyandstrange.livejournal.com]

Brava. I stand with you in the defense of decency, courtesy, and good manners. THey are noble goals we should all strive for - and if we occasionally fail to reach them, we are the better for having at least bloody well tried to achieve them. To exult in ignoble rudenesses and defend them as some sort of God-given right is like ...wallowing in your own filth because you don't see the point in bathing yourself. And just as disgusting.

I wish I could find the Miss Manners quote handy about how one applies rules of lady-and-gentleman sort these days; older and younger persons, high status versus lower status, but treating the gender as equal. It's a nice section of writing.

[feyandstrange.livejournal.com]

People seem to have lost all grasp of walking politely. They're all over the sidewalk, not looking where they're going, eight abreast, talking on cellphones, and for the love of God people, if you're walking unaided, I need that wheelchair ramp more than you do. And I need that elevator more than you do, even if you have a stroller, and it certainly does not give you the right to smash your stroller into my knees in an effort to "beat me in" to the lift. (Yes, this happens on a regular basis; at least once every time I go to the mall.) I've started carrying a riding crop. I hope I have sufficient temper not to use it as anything but a pointer/tap-on-shoulder/flag unless I really have to, but in your situation, I really can't step down into the road, can I? All I can do is keep going and hope they notice before I low-speed-ram them.

Removing shoes is a tricky one. If I know that a house is a shoe-free zone ahead of time, I'll bring indoor-only shoes (and cane), because I wear orthotics and can't walk well in socks or barefoot, or in paper slippers. That's assuming I'm walking, because these days nobody's house is wheelchair-accessible. I've been trying to figure out a solution to weheelchair and no-shoes rules for if I ever get to visit Japan; dammed if I will bring my dirty tires into a shrine, but I haven't found tire covers for my size of wheels. (And do I take my shoes off anyway, even if I'm not walking in them?)

And there's been times where I really, really wished that one of the other guests would put his shoes back on, because his socks and feet stink.

[ekatarina.livejournal.com]

Here here!

I agree.


I often wish I wore hats more often. And gloves.


Sigh.

Ekatarina, who is very sleepy and should have been in bed ages ago

[sev1970.livejournal.com]

Wonderful post! We were taught etiquette from an early age, and to this day, I am forever doing things other people think of as strange, all in the name of proper etiquette.

I have had one embarrasing moment that I want to share. We were at the funeral home for my great grandmother's visitation and there were about ten of us sitting around visiting. My great Uncle walked in and approached us, and me, trying to be polite, offered my chair to him. He declined, but I insisted and he took the seat. I was happy because I thought I had done the appropriate thing - I was in my twenties, and he was in his seventies; it seemed the correct thing to do. Well, whenever my mother and I were alone, she was aghast at what I had done, saying, "YOU NEVER OFFER A CHAIR TO A MAN!" I had never heard of that before, but you can bet I know it now!

[torenheksje.livejournal.com]

It's something of a shame that this kind of thing even needs to be said. While I'm not always 100% perfect in grammar, etc., and I'm quite sure that Miss Manners could still teach me a few things, at least I make a concerted effort to adhere to a certain level of decorum and decency.

Oh, and as an addendum to your post yesterday on appropriate clothing for the occasion: when your cousin wears a denim mini-skirt, flip flops, and a halter top to her own mother's funeral, is it considered more appropriate to roll your eyes, or bite your tongue? I ended up doing both. Without exception, everyone else under 40 who attended was dressed somewhat similarly.

I wore a dress suit (black) and pumps, my husband a business suit (charcoal grey), and I almost felt overdressed. Granny dresses, broomstick skirts, SHORTS, for fuck's sake. Tshirts galore. For a funeral.

Some days, I just weep for humanity.

[baldanders.livejournal.com]

I generally let our disagreement on this issue -- or a part of it -- pass, as I don't see a reconcilable common ground between us. But since you've risen to such an emphatic pitch this time:

Online writing in communities of this sort is somewhere between conversation and exchange of letters. Conversation does not adhere to the grammar of writing. If someone writes in a clear conversational voice that does not observe all the niceties of formal grammar, I don't think they're being rude. My grasp of grammar is excellent, and I will break the rules when I please (and not, so far as I am concerned, bring down the tone).

My disagreement with you about dress in public is not a matter of slovenliness or laziness on my part; it is a matter of my preference and what can reasonably be expected of me. There are degrees of social agreement. It is rude to be naked in public. It is rude to be smelly in public. It is rude to wear beach clothing at the opera. But the standard of dress for events such as theatre and the opera has long been more relaxed than you would like. People who adhere to the new standards are not being rude, however much you dislike the new standards. In fact, social courtesy says it is up to you, as a member of the shrinking minority on this issue, to adjust. I don't expect you to change your mind, but when you insist to people that they are being rude you are wrong, and inconsistent: inconsistent because you are pointing out a social standard, but when the social standard changes you insist it was correct as it was before. You are doing what you accuse other people of doing: ignoring the social standard when it is inconvenient to your belief. There was a time, not that long ago, when dressing as a fictional character for a museum show would have brought down the opprobrium of those from your social class.

Were I going to the theatre with you, your preferences would mean a great deal to me, and I would dress accordingly. When going to the theatre by myself or with others, I will continue to dress as I (and they) please, within the standards that exist at this time, and I won't give a toss what the old school rich think -- who neither invented the theatre nor set the standards for the rest of us. Funereal wear and aspect at social entertainments is not in fact the historical standard, but a twentieth century phenomenon brought to us by the pomposity of Wagner and his ilk, artists who were concerend that their magnificence was not being accorded the proper respect. Your sense of rightness is merely the conventions you were raised with, and they no more deserve preservation than the conventions that preceded yours. I observe the conventions I was raised with -- and believe me, I am just as snobby about my social class as you are about yours. Go ahead and judge me for that; I will judge you for judging me: not that you are a snob, but someone who thinks other people are there primarily for her amusement, comfort, and satisfaction. I am not. Except, of course, when we agree.

Cheers.

[baldanders.livejournal.com]

Footnote:

My snobbery is not about cash or origin, nor is it about entitlement or the idea that some people are just innately better than others by virtue of the social status that happens to be conferred upon them at birth.

My snobbery is about the idea that education, grammar, and social graces are not beyond anyone innately.

Your snobbery may not be about your wealth or class, but your snobbery takes for granted that the manners and social preferences of the wealthy upper class are the highest manners and social preferences, the ones to be striven for, the ones that lesser people fall short of.

I don't share that belief.

[baldanders.livejournal.com]

Another footnote -- am I annoying you yet? --:

I come by my snobbery honestly. I went to private school, studied French and Latin from the time I was very young, Spanish later, and pursued classical Greek in college. I learned about art, music and dance, social behavior, and perhaps more regrettably, social roles.

But we all tend to believe the things we were taught and raised to believe. To me, the beliefs we "come by honestly" are the ones we come to ourselves, not the justifications we manufacture to bolster the beliefs other people instilled in us.

There's no shortage of people who criticise other folks based on no more than the beliefs with which the critic was raised. Men must wear suits at the office. Women can only wear white shoes for part of the year. Everyone must stand when "God Bless America" is played. Enough of all that.

The way you customarily dress no doubt brings down the judgment of many old-fashioned folk who no doubt consider themselves your social betters. Do you care?

[baldanders.livejournal.com]

At a funeral, I usually have different things on my mind than judging the behavior of others. Weeping for the dead and the bereaved, for example, rather than "humanity".

[phaenix-ash.livejournal.com]

Sloppiness and laziness in these sorts of realms make me as insane as cowardice does -- BECAUSE I THINK THEY ARE THE SAME THING. I loathe it in myself and I loathe it in others.

yes yes yes YES!

[saltbox.livejournal.com]

It depends so much on the culture, too. What's considered well-mannered in one culture might be considered low-mannered in another. For example, active tense. We value it--encourage it even--in Western (and mostly American "Western") styled writing. It's considered "good, direct" writing. But in a lot of Asian countries (I know from editing Asian writers), it's considered extremely rude. This is just the first example from the top of my head. Suffice it to say that it was difficult, growing up, juggling two norms of social graces, and honestly, sometimes I can't think of any rational reason to choose one or the other. Many social graces, as far as I can tell, are far from absolute.

[torenheksje.livejournal.com]

I'm rather good at multi-tasking. For instance, I can both be horrified at the lack of respect AND mourn at the same time.

[rm.livejournal.com]

You argue with me both more thoroughly and more politely than almost anyone I know. Having seen much of the discourse (of others) on certain other online venues we've frequented, sometimes I wonder how that happened.

The thing is, even if you didn't dress for an occassion in a way I found appropriate, I'm also nearly certain you would never dress for an occassion in a way I was aghast at. I think that's one thing that I and others have failed to convey on this topic -- a lot of the stuff that has set us off is pretty extreme. I'd love it if people wouldn't wear jeans to the theatre, but really, I'm just ranitng about that because it's there to rant about, but it's really nothing next to stuff that's just insane.

I should probably also write a seperate thing about off-broadway and off-off-broadway theatre -- where people hardly need dress up, but really should keep in mind that the performers can see them. During Counselor we had several days where audience members wore things so vivid that it became nearly impossible to do anything othe than perform to the day-glo orange socks. This is our bad as actors, but woah.

[cookie-cm.livejournal.com]

You nailed my #1 pet peeve: "Me and My..."
It drives me wild when I hear this, and it seems that I hear this statement more often as time goes by. Why is this? I can clearly recall my early school years, where grammar and politeness via use of language was instilled in us each and every year. I do not have children, nor do I have friends who do and so am very out of touch with what is taught/how language is taught these days. But, it is my theory that the decline has begun there.

I have no problem pointing this out every time I hear it.

Ooohhhh, but it makes me cringe!

I am by no means a wordsmith, nor eloquent, and am very guilty of having become lazy and taking advantage of symbols on my keyboard for 'shortcuts' in my thoughts. Is this moving with the times or becoming that much more lazy? I used to admire my attention to detail, to my handwriting and my proper and creative use of language. I loved the time it took to sit and hand write everyting, a letter or a term paper. I often hardly recognize my words these days.

[rm.livejournal.com]

The way you customarily dress no doubt brings down the judgment of many old-fashioned folk who no doubt consider themselves your social betters. Do you care?

Actually, yes. It's probably why my wadrobe is as diverse as it is, although I doubt most of my friends see that these days, as I have the luxury of very rarely having to dress for anything except exactly what I want to be doing. It's certainly why I still own dresses, heals and handbags.

I suppose, because I view all clothes as costumes, why it doesn't irk me to have to wear stuff that I personally am not all hot and bothered for. I have to do it all teh time anyway. My job is rarely if ever about looking how I want to look (e.g., dead junkie whore) and sometimes my life isn't either. *shrug*

[baldanders.livejournal.com]

You argue with me both more thoroughly and more politely than almost anyone I know.

Okay, I will treasure that comment.

I figured you express yourself more emphatically due to the extreme nature of the offenses, which is why I wouldn't make a point of arguing with you except that it's come up a few times in the last couple days so the thoughts have been percolating in my head.

And today seems to be essay-writing day for me, as you will observe later.

[baldanders.livejournal.com]

Actually, yes.

Ah. That's consistent.

[rm.livejournal.com]

Uhoh....

BTW, AC takes opinion pieces if you want to get some pocket change for your views as well.

[rm.livejournal.com]

Ah. That's consistent.

I do try.

[winterknight.livejournal.com]

I love this little rant/essay, and think it is strictly wonderful. I've been lax in my clothing for years -- I wear oversized men's casual clothing -- deliberately and I know it's a sign of low self-esteem and a body image disorder and also a sensory disorder that makes everything difficult.

That said, I own a few good pieces of clothing that are very nice and appropriate and that I despise utterly ... and I wear them anyway, when the situation demands it. To a funeral, a long black skirt and black/floral blouse, black wrap, etc. I feel horrible, enough that I'd like to be sick, because the clothing is touching me in given ways and I can't breathe and so on. But I do it. And if I can suffer through wearing things that make me want to cry, things I have to keep carefully because I do not have the money for something more if I ruin them, then so can other people.

I grew up poor but educated, my father is a professor, and we always (second hand stores are your friend) had appropriate, if not fashionable, clothing. It takes work. But it is worth it and I think it goes deeper than appearances. It's a shame that people don't put forth the effort because a little work and thought will bring you up where you don't have the money/status, and thoughtlessness and laziness will bring you down no matter how much money or status you have.

[ladypeculiar.livejournal.com]

Traditionally, a man should walk curbside to a woman -- to shield her from traffic, splattering mud and the like. While the gender basis of this is certainly outmoded, it is not outmoded to walk curbside of a paramour, friend, child or family member towards which you feel protective.

You know that, as a fellow, snob, I agree with almost all of this.

But historical note: men have traditionally walked closer to the road because trash and human refuse was once poured out of windows-- the men walked curbside to protect their clothing, women and lower classes walked closer to the buildings. The higher your class was, the more "right" you had to be farther away. If you were above a certain class, you would ride carriage, always, no matter how close or how far you were going. Therefore, I will follow the rules of foot traffic (keeping to the right), but aside from that I will walk where I darn please.