the A-for-effort culture

[rm]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/18/education/18college.html

Comments

[angelcityblues.livejournal.com]

I hope you don't mind if I repost that.

[qthelights.livejournal.com]

The problem though can also be blamed on universities/schools. As a tutor at uni I'm appalled at the standards I have to conform to when grading. Basically, no one can be failed unless they do nothing, absolutely nothing.

If they even hint at thinking, they'll get a distinction grade or above. The average is to be 75%, doesn't matter what class, what students, that's what it has to be.

If I were to mark the students work in a way I felt was appropriate? I'd be failing about a 3rd of the class. And i'm not a hard marker, trust me. Why should they bother to try when they know they'll do well anyway. I don't put stock in the theory i've been told by academics I work for, that standards change. Not this much they don't. A lot of these kids cannot write a sentence!!

Okay now i'm just ranting *g*. But seriously, it depresses me so much. It has meant that a degree here means almost nothing in a lot of instances.

[heron61.livejournal.com]

I remember that from my time as a TA. For the truly sucky paper or essay, I had three possible grades - F if it was clear that they weren't even trying, D if they were trying, but were really bad and clueless, and C- if there was some obvious issue like being a foreign student from a non-English speaking nation.

Grading papers is where I realized why I could have a career in writing - most people can't write their way out of a paper bag.

[drfardook.livejournal.com]

This really irks me. One of the metrics that colleges are rated on is the rate at which their students enter grad school. I would like to see that metric change to the rate of students who make it through the first year of grad school without their professors kicking their asses to the curb.

[darthhellokitty.livejournal.com]

A lot of jobs that only required a high school diploma when my parents got started, now require a BA. It's a weird kind of inflation.

C- if there was some obvious issue like being a foreign student from a non-English speaking nation

[stardragonca.livejournal.com]

Not being sufficiently fluent in the language of instruction to do the course work is not really considered a mitigating circumstance, in most countries.
In North America, I'm not sure most people can write their way into a paper bag.
Hopefully, under the Democrats the myth of the successful ignoramus will wither a bit.
I'd hate for the U.S. to survive terrorism and succumb to willful ignorance.

[laughingacademy.livejournal.com]

"If your maximum effort can only be average in a teacher’s mind, then something is wrong."

Oh, so clearly the problem is the teacher's standards, not your performance. *eyeroll*

This sense of entitlement

[newwaytowrite.livejournal.com]

has to filter through every aspect of latest bunch of new adults. It permeates their whole existence as a generation. Entitled to be considered special and unique. Entitled to start independent living (if they ever bother to move out) with all the accoutrements their parents worked at least twenty years to accumulate. Entitled to their post secondary education as long as they have paid their fees.

The latest thing from English undergraduate students is why do we have to read so many books?
I thought such a question was ridiculous and rude coming from journalism students who attended a senior level literature class so imagine my disgust at these comments from English majors.

[ladyofthelog.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I feel that this is part of the problem. There are a lot of jobs that really do not require the skills of a BA that a BA is required to perform. And there are a lot more people in college now than there ever have been in the past.

I have complicated feelings about the issue of grade inflation, but that may be because of where I go to school and how grading differs between disciplines.

Re: This sense of entitlement

[laughingacademy.livejournal.com]

You know, in my day people became English majors so they'd have an excuse fer readin' all dem books.

[ladyofthelog.livejournal.com]

Perhaps part of this is that I have a non-terrible GPA despite never being at full brain power/academic function due to being ill for all of my college career. I mean, I guess I'm trying hard, at being not crazy and not sick. I am not really trying hard at my courses specifically. I don't know what this means in the context of grade inflation. Do I get good grades because I am smart and write well? Do I get good grades because my professors perceive me to be working hard? etc.

[feyandstrange.livejournal.com]

Compare and contrast with college students I know who are dependent on an academic scholarship with high grade standards, but have a teacher who refuses to give the class any kind of curve and awards nothing higher than a B minus ever to anyone, thus dooming their scholarship and possibly their education. When a student has an otherwise A minus and above record for many semesters, that's not just hardassedness, that's bad teaching.

I always hated being graded by effort, because I was undiagnosed LD. A paper I wrote in ten minutes in study hall would earn an A, another which I pulled an all-nighter working on would get a C minus and a "I can tell you didn't try very hard". Sure, according to my test scores I was smart. But easy stuff was hard for me, and hard stuff was easy, and so I never got credit for trying - in fact, sometimes I would get a lower grade than someone else for equivalent results because a teacher decided that other kid had tried real hard, and I'd slacked off. I was "capable of better" because I was supposedly a genius and that other kid wasn't. But that other kid worked and smiled and played along, and so that kid got into the Gifted and Talented program even though they weren't particularly either but maintained a good grade average, and genius fuckups like me split our time between Gifted and Talented and academic probation and detention.

Nor was it fair when they gave us two grades, one for effort. How annoying is it to get a grade that says "A for work - C for effort". What, I was supposed to work harder than an A?

I was going to have "Did not live up to her potential" put on my headstone, back when I strongly suspected I wouldn't make it out of high school alive.

[verasteine.livejournal.com]

Hah! This is, well, hilarious, for me, but it's not my education system, and that helps. Mind you, as a clever student who spent 90% of her education doing the bare minimum because I usually passed anyway, getting my first 4 (= D, I think, in the US system, maybe even F) when I wrote my first paper for my masters woke me up. Never worked harder than that year, and though I still hate the professor in question, you wanna bet I'm a better student as a result.

But I have to say, the student who said "What else is there? Epic fail. I mean, we're not all equally gifted, are we, but we should pass medical students and the like on basis of effort? I'd like to believe grades and diplomas still stood for something...

[christinenorris.livejournal.com]

Yeah, no one remembers that C is average. Because no one wants to BE average. EVERYONE wants to be exceptional.

And it really irks those of us who are :)

C isn't a bad grade, it just means you're doing average work. Get over it or work harder and find out how to raise the grade. Many of the teachers in the elementary schools where I work have this on their wall: "I don't give you grades - you earn them."

I think it's good to remind the students of that.

[crazycatlady.livejournal.com]

I love this study a little and am forwarding it on to my husband. He'll get a kick out of it.

It's true though, that kids think they deserve an A just for showing up. I saw it at my old job too. Kids showing up fresh out of college who think that entry level telemarketing job = 6-figure income. It's sad, really.

[hyrkanian.livejournal.com]

When I signed up for Western Civ I at Durham Tech Community College, my adviser tried to convince me to wait another semester. She said that particular teacher failed more students than all the others combined. I said I wanted to stay on track and stayed in the class. Dr. Baker became my favorite teacher very quickly though, because he didn't grade on a curve, didn't give make up tests or extra credit. The first day of class he said something to the effect of "If you have a problem with being graded this way, please drop the class now and save all of us the time and effort of you holding us back."

Every other class I took at that school I had A's. Some I earned but most were way too easy. Dr. Baker's Western Civ I got a B, and worked my ass off to get it. I'm more proud of that B than all but one of the A's I got. The A was a sys admin class I took just to fill up a time slot, not knowing I was supposed to take a year of pre-req's to get in. My adviser apparently didn't know that either. So I walked in knowing zip about sys admin stuff. I was the only female to ever take the class to that point as well. :) I made (earned!) the only A of the class, and the guys who were in the class with me had had all the pre-reqs. So that one I brag about a bit. :)

I'm trying very hard to teach my sons that most anything worth having is earned, and entitlement is silly. I grew up in poverty so it was easy for me to learn this early. Now not being so poor it's more difficult to teach my kids that just because we *could* buy them something doesn't mean we will. Not just school but life in general, people need to buck up and take personal responsibility. *sigh* Most won't, though.

Thanks for the link, reposting it in my LJ.

[sykii.livejournal.com]

I love that the news media are only just now catching on to this.

[sykii.livejournal.com]

"I don't give you grades - you earn them."
Yes, yes, and yes. Unfortunately, one must keep reminding them through high school and college, too.

[sykii.livejournal.com]

So when a critical mass of students know this about the professor in advance (and students have ways of getting the word out now), then eventually people will start avoiding this professor's class, administration will ask the prof. what is going on, and the issue will come up. If the professor really has never given higher than a B- to anyone, this will look suspicious.
The same forces that cause grade inflation under other conditions will, in this case, sort that professor out.

Re: C- if there was some obvious issue like being a foreign student from a non-English speaking nati

[sykii.livejournal.com]

Not being sufficiently fluent in the language of instruction to do the course work is not really considered a mitigating circumstance, in most countries.
It is at my school, a large public university in a major city with a huge and diverse immigrant population. Students are accepted to the school no matter what their writing abilities and essentially allowed to sink or swim in their coursework. Some professors consider ESL a mitigating circumstance, and some don't. I've had students at essentially the same level of english proficiency bring me both B- and F papers, depending on the instructor and the paper.
Undergraduates who work in the school's free tutoring center (like myself) are the ones who work with non-english-speaking students to make sure they pass the test that our school requires them to pass in order to graduate.
It is, to say the least, not an ideal system. But I meet lots of interesting people.

[haste.livejournal.com]

Thank Christ, I've been ranting about this for ages.

I do think the students' intentions are somewhat misrepresented in this article, though. For some, of course, it IS a false sense of entitlement, and an A-for-effort mentality. But there is also a huge amount of pressure on students to be brilliant, to get straight A's, to stand out.

For many parents, school administrators and prospective employers, a C is considered a disappointment. C's are the new F's, and no longer considered an average accomplishment by anyone, students and adults alike. It's not hard for kids to begin picking that up, and interpreting anything less than an A as a sign of failure.

Some colleges also have extremely strict GPA requirements, which add another layer of pressure. In order to be accepted into my language major, I have to maintain not only a B average in the language classes I enjoy, but across the board. It makes getting high marks in required classes like math and science, which I despise or don't understand, extra stressful.

[hexkitten.livejournal.com]

Nearly two-thirds of the students surveyed said that if they explained to a professor that they were trying hard, that should be taken into account in their grade.

Every week, I try really hard to write an entertaining post for thereallljidol, therefore I deserve to win.

Somebody needs to put the smack down on these kids. What are they going to do when they get jobs?

"Gee, boss, I know that my numbers don't add up and that I gave the wrong information to multiple clients for months, but I worked really hard, so I shouldn't be fired."

[hexkitten.livejournal.com]

I do think the students' intentions are somewhat misrepresented in this article, though.

Maybe.

I think that we've created a culture that doesn't properly set up kids for what they'll need to do later in life. I notice a lot of other parents who try to instill in their kids the idea that if you work hard, you deserve the big rewards, which isn't necessarily the case.

[hexkitten.livejournal.com]

Off-topic, but I saw your user pic and almost squealed, "SAILOR JUPITER!"

[these-3-remain.livejournal.com]

The arrogance of young Americans today makes me sick. (Which is rather ironic, since depending on how one slices the demographic pools, I could be considered a "young American.") Ten years ago, I saw this bitchy I-deserve-a-better-grade attitude playing out among my fellow students and even THEN it got on my nerves. Never have I felt that I didn't get the grade I deserved in a class - whether I received an A, a C or an F.

Especially arrogant is the idea that "if I tell the teacher how hard I worked, he/she should consider raising my grade." Um, your teacher only has one way to gauge how hard you worked: the product you turn in, whether that's a term paper, a multiple-choice quiz, a work of art, a speech, what have you. If your product reveals a faulty understanding of the subject matter, if it's sloppy or unfinished, that does not mean you worked hard! Saying, "but I did all the required reading," means nothing, because the prof was not THERE to see you read. He/she can't hand out grades for work you SAID you did.

Argh! /self-righteous academic rant

[these-3-remain.livejournal.com]

Every week, I try really hard to write an entertaining post for therealljidol, therefore I deserve to win.

Brilliant! At the very least, you deserve a cookie for that comment.

Re: This sense of entitlement

[these-3-remain.livejournal.com]

SRSLY! WTF else do you want to do with your life if you're an English major?

[hexkitten.livejournal.com]

Mmm. I love cookies. I should bake some shortbread today.

[these-3-remain.livejournal.com]

Definitely! And even if you don't follow the recipe, as long as you word hard, your cookies should be delicious.

[hexkitten.livejournal.com]

I'm going to extend this throughout my kitchen!

If I undercook chicken, nobody can get food poisoning because I tried really hard!

[these-3-remain.livejournal.com]

Exactly!

It works for everything in life: If I'm driving to work and I hit a pedestrian, I can't be charged with vehicular manslaughter because I tried really hard to stay off the sidewalks.

[manycolored.livejournal.com]

This is how being a TA drove me out of academia.

[manycolored.livejournal.com]

I think there's a solution for students who come to you with a D or F. Let them have the option of completely re-doing the assignment (new topic and everything.) If they can get a B or A on the second project, average that with the first grade.

This was pretty standard policy where I went as an undergraduate. You'd only take them up on it if you were desperate - needed the credit to graduate, usually. But it was quite a learning experience the one time I did it. (It's a lot more fair than "rewrite til you get an A" - how then do you distinguish between the students who can produce an A paper the first time, and those who have to hand in 3 versions and get lots of extra help?)

Part of the problem is that the standards are so low that grades don't mean anything consistent or useful. An A doesn't mean you're top-flight by any stretch. What do you need? A cum of 4.0? Then the students who take courses from profs notorious for grading hard just because they want to learn suffer, while students who pick all the softies get their 4.0 cum.

[bodlon.livejournal.com]

I'm seeing two separate issues here.

Culturally, there's a real issue in the way we relate to achievement, failure, and personal worth.

The idea that a failure of performance does not constitute a lack of individual worth (e.g. "an F on a test does not make you a bad person," which I would argue is generally true) is useful, but I think a lot of people then make a faulty logical leap from "I can fail and still be okay" to "because I'm okay, my performance doesn't matter."

We should recognize effort, and nurture it, but we also have to teach people to be accountable, to set/work toward/achieve goals, etc. In an ideal world, as an educator, if someone comes to me and says "I'm working so hard but not getting the result I want," would be an opportunity to see what that effort looks like and try to doctor it and make it more effective.

Unfortunately, a lot of people aren't open to that kind of thing. It's not the sort of thing that gets taught properly, either to educators or to students. Mentoring is hard, takes a lot of energy, and many teachers are overworked as it is. In short, I think the system fails because it's understaffed, standards for educators are out of whack, and the pay (especially in primary education) is laughable.

Plus, because of grade inflation, a prof who enforces C-as-default can be terrifying to students for all the wrong reasons. These people are outliers and grade on a different scale. For students, just from a pragmatic standpoint, that's very hard to cope with because of the chilling effect it has on a person's lifetime prospects. The sad thing is that it isn't the professor's fault, and a fair grade isn't the problem. Grade inflation is the problem.

Earnestness is good. Effort is good. Achievement is good. But if we're going to reward people, we need to be very clear what we're rewarding them for, and why.

Exactly!

[newwaytowrite.livejournal.com]

love the icon.

Re: This sense of entitlement

[newwaytowrite.livejournal.com]

I totally fell in love with the idea of being an English major....it helped fuel my book reading addiction.

Re: Exactly!

[these-3-remain.livejournal.com]

Thanks! Feel free to use it if you'd like.

[haste.livejournal.com]

I have to agree with what was quoted in part of the article; that kids aren't going to be motivated to put in above average effort, if above average acknowledgment won't be gained for it. I know I certainly wouldn't. It's like the stick without the carrot. If everyone is required to put in more work for the same standard recognition, you've only raised the common denominator, not encouraged people to work towards standing out.

I do think that the understanding of the grading system needs to be re-aligned, in this country. C's are representative of an average grade; if you just do what's required and put in an average effort, that's what you'll get. Any extra effort should be rewarded with an ascending grade, and any lack of effort should result in a lowered grade, by degrees.

[(Anonymous)]

Yes. Yes yes yes. You said everything I didn't know how to.

[haste.livejournal.com]

Er. That was my comment. I wasn't logged in.

[hexkitten.livejournal.com]

I don't think effort alone should be rewarded, though. I've always had trouble with Physics. The last time I took a class, I went to extra labs, spent time with the professor, and sought the help of tutors. I still couldn't get all the formulas right, and my test scores and grade reflected that. Just because I put in extra time doesn't mean that I deserved a higher grade.

(That blow job to the teacher should have, though. Just kidding!)

[hexkitten.livejournal.com]

Ha! I can't top this example.

[rm.livejournal.com]

Yes. Thank you. As someone else who sucks at physics, may I just say A-for-effort is not how we get to the stars. C-for-effort, sure, maybe.

[haste.livejournal.com]

Grading all in degrees, and it's all very subjective. I agree with you that just demonstrating effort should not equate an A. That's irresponsible grading. But if you're putting in extra work, meeting with your teacher regularly, going to every length you can and clearly demonstrating that you care and that you're trying, but you're just not the type of person who gets Physics, I think it's also irresponsible grading to write off your effort with an F.

[these-3-remain.livejournal.com]

LOL. This "but I tried really hard" excuse is truly ludicrous, isn't it? And yet a lot of folks use it. Don't they know that the matter was settled a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away? "Do or do not... there is no try.” (http://thinkexist.com/quotation/do_or_do_not-there_is_no_try/250565.html)