Oh Noes! There's Gay People In My Fandom!

[rm]

I want to preface this by saying that not only do I not have the solution, I'm having a hard time defining the problem, because it's more complex than it seems at first glance. I also want to preface this by saying I'm not interested in the misery olympics, nor do I speak for (or about) all fannish types or all queer folks who intersect with fandom. I'm also not interested in explaining Privilege 101 to anyone. Yes, I'm expecting a bit of awareness or prep work to ride this ride. (ETA: Since I am starting to get some comments that Don't Get It, let me direct you to: http://www.derailingfordummies.com/)

Let me also say that this isn't remotely as artful as it could or should be, because I'm sorta pissed off right now.

Fandom has a problem. It's about gender, sexual-orientation, arousal and privilege.

Facts as I see them:

- people write fanfic and create fanart and fanvids. Much of this content examines relationships emotionally and/or sexually. Some of this material reflects the canon relationships of programs, some doesn't. Some of this content reflects gay relationships, some straight, with a decent amount of "other" (poly, other-gendered, etc etc etc) thrown in.

- the relationship structures/types are, in some circles, viewed very much like a genre. Het or Slash becomes a genre as much as Romance or Horror does.

- through this relationship orientation/structure/type being viewed as a genre situation, a number of trends, some problematic, begin to occur. These largely seem to center around a disconnect between fiction and fantasy.

And that's where the following rant comes in:

Real, live queer people exist out there in the world and real, live queer people exist in fandom. And I am sick and tired of us being either something merely fetishized or relegated to a genre either appealing or not.

I am _not_ saying that het people shouldn't be writing slash (one unfortunate drama I've seen on the Internet lately), because hey, what turns you on, what interests you, no matter who you are, THAT'S PART OF YOUR SEXUAL AND EMOTIONAL IDENTITY TOO and I'm all for it.

But, for fuck's sake, if you're going to write slash, you don't get to do that and then say that real life homosexuality is immoral (yep, seen this one in fandom -- and yes, I'm looking at you, Harry Potter fandom) without there being repercussions in the sense of community disapproval.

You also might want to consider that going to a Gay Pride parade just to ogle same-sex couples kissing and not because the parade is fun or important or meaningful AND BRAGGING ABOUT IT, is also a bit outre (yep, seen this one in fandom recently too).

You might also want to take a step back from calling every random celebrity queer couple heroes for being out in places where it's largely safe to be out. I'm not saying it's not brave -- it's hard to be famous and gay and people still get bashed even in places like New York City. But, people have given up their lives in this struggle, and for those of us in the struggle, even if we're pretty privileged and haven't had to do the scary stuff (and for the record, I have been a target of anti-gay violence, harassment and rape threats; I've sat in the ER with friends who have been bashed) -- it's creepy when you call us heroes because you like watching us kiss/hold hands/fuck (yep, seen this one in fandom recently, and yeah, I'm looking at you Torchwood fandom). I am not a hero for turning you on, and neither in John Barrowman. Got it? Good.

Now, while we're at it, you might also wish to remember that while your fictional queer people may be posable dolls, real-life queer people aren't. Think fucking twice about asking people to kiss for your amusement, even if they've been perfectly willing to do it before because the gay people who aren't targets of that moment, who are sitting there in that room with you? It can make us feel like shit, because wow, wouldn't it be nice if you were as interested in our stories as our flesh? (And yes, seen this in fandom recently. Seen it at cons. Seen it towards celebrities, seen it towards cosplayers, seen people not get the difference between choosing to do something for one's own amusement as opposed to an audience. Had this shit directed at me, even by people I consider friends. NOT COOL, PEOPLE.)

And tangentally related to the above? Don't ask couples who the top is. Seriously. Don't. Fuck you. (and to continue on a theme, seen it in fandom, seen it directed at celebs, seen it directed at fans, had it directed at me -- why is it so hard to understand that just because someone will seemingly talk about anything you don't have a right to know anything you want? Also the simplification of gay sexuality into role a or role b is really fucking rude).

Now, you don't like slash? It's not your genre? It doesn't turn you on? THAT'S FINE and you're not being homophobic. The problems always start after that -- and those problems? Yeah, sometimes that is homophobia in action. Here's some shit you might want to think twice about doing:

- When you list stuff you don't like in fiction, try not to bookend references to homosexuality with things like horror, incest, rape, etc. Because that? That sure looks homophobic. (Hey fandom, this one happened YESTERDAY).

- When queer content isn't to your taste? Don't call it icky. (DOES NO ONE HAVE ANY COMMON SENSE? -- also yesterday in fandom)

- And seriously people, when there's a discussion about what categories are and are not included in an awards community or whatever, have enough of a clue to realize that heterosexual content is privileged in the media and that gay content isn't. Having awards for that limited amount of gay content in the mainstream media is not actually "the same sort of discrimination" as awards that purport to be for all content but that actively exclude gay content. (That was also this morning, fandom).

Advice in four words: PRIVILEGE - LOOK IT UP!


Look people, it's pretty simple. Slash is a word for a type of content that pairs two characters of the same gender together (the specificity of whether this means non-canon pairing or includes canon pairing is a debate, but not one relevant to this post), and you can feel pretty much any which way about it, I don't much happen to care -- because the issue here isn't sentiment, it's conduct.

But what slash means is that the content it applies to tells stories about gay people: what they do at work, what they argue about in the kitchen, what they feel in their hearts, and yes, often enough (because holy crap, the Internet is for porn) how they fuck.

The key words in the above sentence, in case you got distracted by the implication of curtains!fic or porn: "stories about gay people."

Gay people are real. We are in your fandom. We are very happy to be here. We are happy to exist in fandom content in a way we don't often in the original material content. We, and the fictional characters whose lives reflect our own to some small degree, get to have full lives here in a way we don't often get from ABC or NBC or CBS or the BBC or WHATEVER at 8pm and sadly for many of us, in a way we don't always get to have with our families or in our workplaces.

So stop treating us like we're fictional. Like that real gay people are inconveniences or blow-up dolls or just some weird, slightly novel, abstract idea.

It's rude, it's ignorant, and most importantly, it's boring. Knock it off.

Comments

[count-to-seven.livejournal.com]

A-effing-men.

[gallo-de-pelea.livejournal.com]

Think fucking twice about asking people to kiss for your amusement,

I

what

People don't actually d-- oh god when I'm done picking my jaw up off the desk I'm doing to slam my head into it for a while.

[karnythia.livejournal.com]

I hate to say it, but right now I just can't deal with fandom. The level of assholishness about every single 'ism is wearing me out. Which is not to make your post all about me, but I realized when I started reading it that I was totally expecting fandom to be fucking up.

[brewsternorth.livejournal.com]

I know, right? Epic humanity FAIL.

[rm.livejournal.com]

On one hand, I sort of have hope, because this is an issue finally coming to the surface (although it's been lurking for ages), so maybe we'll thrash it out and solve some shit. On the other hand -- you're so right, it's like change the group and watch the new fail same as the old fail (which continues to transpire as well).

[elynne.livejournal.com]

... I'm sorry that you're having to deal with that kind of stupidity. Blargh. Gah, it makes me wonder how many times I've been present while that kind of stupidity has been going on and I didn't notice. GAH. Yay for me and my het priviledge. If I see it, I'll call it out. I'm sorry for possibly having helped contribute to it indirectly, by not being aware of it and calling it out in the past.

[karnythia.livejournal.com]

Part of it is that having now gone to two "good" cons and seen the fail live and in color (not to mention starting question101 which is probably going to kill me) from people more than old enough to know better? I hope that you can get some things resolved, but I'm starting to feel like we're the birds using our beaks to grind down the diamond mountain.

[laughingacademy.livejournal.com]

...if you're going to write slash, you don't get to do that and then say that real life homosexuality is immoral...

That particular piece of FAIL never ceases to amaze me. I’m also wondering what the hell kind of slash stories those folks write.

[reannon.livejournal.com]

That right there is why I've been awkward and hesitant about including gay characters in my fiction. As a straight woman, I have no personal experience to draw from in creating a gay character. I can base them on gay friends, but I am frankly terrified of stepping on landmines I didn't know were there, walking the line between creating a gay stereotype or butching a character up to the point where s/he's a straight character who everyone says is gay.

While slash has never been my thing, I know a lot of people who really enjoy it. I can't imagine someone hypocritical enough to write slash and then claim homosexuality is "icky" or immoral. Good God. Do people really ask gay people to kiss for their own amusement? I suppose I knew on some level it exists - case in point, my coworker who said homosexuality is immoral and wrong, unless it's two hot women doing it for porn - but I want to think better of the alternative fandom world.

*headdesks at the stupid*

[neifile7.livejournal.com]

Thanks for this. By the time I went to argue at Vidorama fail last night, all the comments had been deleted, which pisses me off almost as much as the no-slash rule. Right, commit homophobia and then fucking don't allow public critique or discussion of it. Saw the caps this a.m., and this was no flame war; everyone was angry but thoughtful and measured, which makes the host look even worse than if there had been a dogpile.

But yes; actions like this need to be contextualized and that's what you've done here. Painful but necessary. Again, thanks.

[gallo-de-pelea.livejournal.com]

I would be more incredulous about this, but... well, I've been to a lot of anime cons, so it doesn't seem that far outside the realm of possibility.

Still firmly in "oh god no what no" territory, though.

[rednwhiterose.livejournal.com]

I’m also wondering what the hell kind of slash stories those folks write.


I almost posted both of my knee-jerk reactions to this, but then I realized I might start a wank-war or something. So I'm just going to bite my tongue..as much as I really don't want to.

[rm.livejournal.com]

I do not believe in "write what you know". I write what I don't know all the time, and it often terrifies me. Be willing to listen when someone says you fucked up. Be willing to do research. But otherwise, it's all good. It's a process.

Because the fact is, you do know how to write gay characters. The differences are minor compared to the similarities. The contextual differences are important, but even with privilege that stuff is there for you to observe every day.

[rm.livejournal.com]

If you've got insight into this, I wouldn't mind hearing it. I allow pretty hot debate here (that's usually remarkably civil), but I definitely draw the line on some of the ugly crazy I see out on the net.

Also, I'll be away from keys most of the day, so you don't need to worry about my temper.

[gairid.livejournal.com]

...if you're going to write slash, you don't get to do that and then say that real life homosexuality is immoral...

I've seen this one, too--it's pretty high on the WTF chart, but I haven't come across anyone asking a queer couple to..perform for them as though they were trained seals or somethiing. Good thing, too.

As much as I love fandom and enjoy playing in several of the different sandboxes therein, it's been pretty headdesking lately and, other than continuing to write on a current WIP, I find that I have been participating a good deal less as a result.

[5251962.livejournal.com]

This is not new, though and it's definitely not something fandom started- how long has the porno industry been pretty hot on the girl on girl genre for straight men?
And of those straight men, I'm more than willing to bet a bit more than a small handful were of the conservative, no rights for you variety.
Actually I am sure of it, my ex husband was one, at least.

This isn't to downplay what you've said at all- it's a great point and it is something I also wish people would realize, but yeah, this didn't begin with fandom at all.

[lawsontl.livejournal.com]

I'm just trying to figure out how someone could write slash and then say homosexuality in RL is immoral. Eh? So do they write their slash characters as immoral as well, or are they supportive of it in the fic? I almost feel compelled to seek it out (almost) so I can understand it. I carry what a lot of people believe to be contradictory belief sets, but not THAT contradictory. Sheesh.

One thing I've noticed lately is the number of people who seem compelled to write stories about homo or bi characters who were sexually abused as a child by someone of the same gender (or sometimes opposite gender, but more often same). There's an underlying implication that their adult sex lives are a result of this abuse, a reenactment, a dysfunction. They never come out and say it, but I get tired of it, because the suggestion is there that maybe they'd be straight if the abuse hadn't happened. That's a fail on so many levels...

[rm.livejournal.com]

No, it didn't begin with fandom. But how many people who watch girl-on-girl porn videos also socialize with those women? Or engaged in emotional narratives involving those women?

In fandom we're about stories and we also socialize with each other. We see each other as real people, so the fail is way more offensive.

[rednwhiterose.livejournal.com]

Insight, I have none. I'm not entrenched deep enough into the fandom like you are to have that type of opinion. Rather, it was going to be some type of snide/witty remark because that's usually my first response to something like this. And then I'll think about it and formulate a more civil, well thought out, opinion based on my (limited) interactions in fandom.

Although, I do have to say a 'thank you' to you for reminding me that there is more to fandom then what I follow (even if it's ugly and not pleasant). And that sometimes I need a shake-up in my rut every now and then...even if I don't like it.

[thaddeusfavour.livejournal.com]

There is a difference between having a personal preference (we all do) and setting up an award with discriminatory practices. That this person could not see this/did not want to acknowledge this, is very obvious. It bothered me to no end that, should we have changed a few words such as "no gay content" to "no PoC", this person might very well have been horrified by the obvious bias. They saw nothing wrong with not liking gay, however.

Very eloquent, as always.

[elainasaunt.livejournal.com]

Um, REALLY? I mean, I’d heard via xtricks about the homophobic vid contest, but the rest of this? How, er, icky. I am spoiled, I guess, by being mostly in the Torchwood fandom, and moreover in a particularly grown-up part of that fandom. Your post reinforces my disinclination to stray. Having said that, however, I have to give a hearty “Amen!” to the points you make (elegantly, as usual, despite your understandable anger) hereabove.

[brewsternorth.livejournal.com]

Is that Nathan Fillion in your icon? (Sorry to sidetrack from something important.)

[ophymirage.livejournal.com]

*waves at Karnythia* also, omg kudos on being brave enough to start that community, but I worry that your head will asplode from stress about 30 days in..

Re epic fandom fail: I wish I were surprised, but I think "Meet the new fail, same as the old fail" is going to be a recurrent problem (see beaks, grinding, for the use of), because the people who are going to be attracted to fandom as a community are (often, not always, but often) people who are outsiders, in one sense or another, and thus not as well socialized as we might like.

the problem is that they don't *see* themselves as the outsiders, because in their new happy place they're all accepted and nothing they do can be wrong. (see desks, head, for the pounding of).

I admit that I have largely stayed out of fandom, despite being writer and beta, because I don't really have time for the epic tsunami tide levels of wankery that seem to ensue about every three months, let alone the self-importance of most of those wanking.

RM, I applaud you for being willing to engage (and scream), and for the way that these essays make me go back and address my own and my writing-partner's fic to say, how can we do this better? how are our own 'privileged' (white, bi, poly, etc.) identities making us miss dynamics that should be obvious?

Which is a long way of saying, rant away, more discussion can only make us better..

[5251962.livejournal.com]

That's true- I am not entirely familiar with fandom as it has never actually been my thing, but this thing with the porno, I've seen quite alot of. Working in the strip club as a bartender, you'd see it quite a bit, too- up in the comments I saw the one about "kiss for my entertainment" and that was what sprang to mind more than the videos.

I can definitely see where the anger comes in though, since you've explained the interactive aspect of it.

I hope you don't mind my jumping in here...

[violetisblue.livejournal.com]

"As a straight woman, I have no personal experience to draw from in creating a gay character. I can base them on gay friends, but I am frankly terrified of stepping on landmines I didn't know were there..."

As a lesbian and a writer, I understand your wariness but it also sort of makes me sad: There are as many ways to be queer as there are queer people in the world and if you start from the premise of shared humanity first, and let the characters' own personalities and individuality guide you, I think you'll be far more successful than if you approach it like you're writing about a separate mysterious species. (Like that old cartoon: "They shopped for groceries! They hung out with their friends! They went to work every day! They were living...THE HOMOSEXUAL LIFESTYLE!") There are queer people immersed in queer culture and those like me who are rather alienated from it and all points in between--and also, frankly, no matter what you write someone is going to tell you that you fucked it up for some reason or another, so you might as well take a risk and learn from it.**

**And now if I can learn to apply my own advice more consistently to writing about characters of color, we'll all be cooking with gas.