About the thing said to Ianto in CoE, Day 3 that is causing controversy

[rm]

I learnt the word queer when I was about eight, reading something or other. I didn't learn that it meant gay, just that it meant weird, and I thought it was a lovely word and I used it all the time.

One day, at camp, when I was twelve, I used it to describe a novel I was reading, and another little twelve-year-old looked at me wide eyed and asked in what manner it was homosexual, as they had not heard that it was. I did not understand, but by the end of the day, I learned I could never use the word queer again, not because it was offensive, but because it looked bad to talk about homosexual things.

When I went to university, it was a time of Riot Grrls and being confrontational. People wrote slut on themselves in lipstick, not to be cute and clever and get laid (which does seem to be a trend now), but to be angry and repellent. And people like me? Well, we were queer.

But queer was never an angry word for me, it was just mouth pleasure to say, and less clinical or multisyllabic than my other options (gay woman, bisexual, homosexual, lesbian, gender variant, etc.) and I liked it in the sort of ridiculous way a slight girl who happens to look like Oscar Wilde must. So it's been my word, for-like-EVER, not to make people uncomfortable, but because it's easiest for me. I like it.

Now sure, I've had queer used as an insult to me, and you know, insults are all about tone. When the waiter called me sir last night at the Algonquin, I practically puffed up with joy. When the idiot that works at my bank does it, when I'm wearing a dress, as some code for "ugly woman I don't want to deal with right now" I could punch someone. So sometimes queer is an insult and sometimes it's not.

One of the rules of thumb I've noticed about this is adjectives are more likely to be okay than nouns. If you're describing me as queer without vitriol, we're good. If you're describing me as "a queer" even without vitriol, we might have a problem. It's the same thing with being Jewish or describe as "a Jew." I've had people scream at me on the street "You Jew!" because of disputes over taxis and stuff. Nouns with implied (no matter how irrational) negative associations can be really scary.

And that's, of course, how Clem used "the queer" in talking about Ianto.

Now I've seen a lot of meta about whether Clem could really smell his orientation, or if it was about the scent of recent intimacy with Jack (when? in the backseat of the car at the end of Ep 2?) and whether saying things like this on TV is dangerous because it leads people to think queer people really are different and not just like everyone else, and oh, god, you can tell!

Man, I have so many more problems with all this meta than I do with what Clem said, even as, yeah, I would have hollered too.

1. As a queer person, I am different. And you can tell. This is not true of all queer people, but it's worth noting that I'm somewhat sick of people advocating that we're all just like everyone else. Hardly. We're not even all like each other. Get it?

2. The world has homophobia in it. Why shouldn't it be on TV not as a major plot point but as the real live background noise we deal with in the world -- even when fighting aliens apparently?

3. Can we please stop thinking that writers share the views of, and advocate the behaviors contained in, the material they write? I think Jack/Ianto in IHNIIHBT are codependent loons, although I also think they are beautiful. And have you fucking read Descensus -- an epic examination of the very high and ugly price of trying to preserve traditions no matter how ugly they become -- do you really think I think those characters are good just because I'm capable of justifying in their own heads for narrative sake where they are coming from? Because if you think I think those characters are right, as opposed to justified from their perspectives, I'm not even sure why you're still talking to me.

4. Can we please stop thinking the audience is stupid? Did anyone watch a mentally challenged guy with a history of alien abduction call Ianto a queer and say he smells different and then decide that this somehow implies true facts about gay people? REALLY? Are you actually afraid this is happening out there?

5. People! Are you not loving the running joke about Ianto Jones's Very Bad Homosexual Day? Come on, this is the funniest shit ever. This thing that's only ever been a vague niggling issue for him because he's got no time and he's in the Torchwood bubble, and christ, it's Jack, has suddenly become the stupid topic people won't drop even while the world is ending. It's really funny, and if your life has even half of the weird serendipity mine has, you know that this sort of absurdity tends to cluster. It's hilarious, and it's RTD winking and nodding at us. Seriously, am I the only person who has had my own version of this? No way! NO WAY!

6. I stand by what I said yesterday about the read GDL gives Ianto's reaction line. Outrage and personal processing: it's gracefully done and elevates the writing. Once again, Euros Lyn is a genius of a director. Torchwood doesn't always know why it's doing things, but it usually knows what it's doing. Trust.

7. As a queer person, I love my allies, but come to my side, not to my rescue.

Comments

P.S.

[1-mad-squirrel.livejournal.com]

After all, Torchwood is known for that kind of misdirection.

[delle.livejournal.com]

When the waiter called me sir last night at the Algonquin, I practically puffed up with joy. When the idiot that works at my bank does it, when I'm wearing a dress, as some code for "ugly woman I don't want to deal with right now" I could punch someone.

I WORK at a bank. If one of my coworkers called a woman - who is presenting as a woman, wearing a dress - "sir", I WOULD PUNCH THEM.

I.... I'm simply floored that in this day and age someone thinks this is appropriate behavior. I feel like I should apologize for all the stupid narrow-minded homophobic het people out there. Jesus H. Roosevelt Christ.

[rhiannonstone.livejournal.com]

I'm somewhat sick of people advocating that we're all just like everyone else. Hardly. We're not even all like each other. Get it?

HELL YES. Thank you. It has been my personal crusade lately, as a sex educator who trains little baby sex educators, to make people understand this, and for the most part I feel like I've been failing, because a lot of people--even and perhaps especially those who identify as queer or part of some other alphabet soup community--just aren't getting it. It's heartening to see it reinforced here.

[addyke.livejournal.com]

Right - time for a little social context.

I identify as queer or as a dyke or when I'm being very PC a gay woman.

I tend to use the word 'queer' as an adjective rather than a noun and I think that in that context it is a bit more inclusive than LGBT (which doesn't cover half of it).

However my best friend (a gay man) is the same age as Ianto (if you take 1983 as Ianto's DOB) and grew up in South Wales, near Cardiff - and he has real issues with the word 'queer' - particularly as a noun. In that part of Wales (and indeed most of the UK and Ireland) calling someone a queer never lost its original venom and is probably one of the worst homophobic insults around - it has never been 'reclaimed' to the extent as some terms.

He thought Ianto's reaction was absolutely spot on and I must admit I have been known to shout 'Oi!' myself when hearing the word 'gay' used to mean rubbish or bad.

Ianto took his sister's and brother-in-law's ribbing because he knew it was good-natured but he has his boundaries and he stood his ground when that boundary was crossed - and Clem's use of 'the queer' there is a very common boundary to have if you're from Ianto's background.

[madambackslash.livejournal.com]

I saw that and thought "Ianto has a spine, he can look after himself," and lo, he did. After his BIL and sister, Clem's remark was the straw that made the camel really pissed off.

As for the smell thing, I totally think Clem smelled Jack on Ianto -- they did hug after Ianto asked "Did they kill you?"

[phaetonschariot.livejournal.com]

lol I actually asked James Moran and he said it was special not-really-smell, coz like... truth and being three months pregnant aren't really things you can smell either.

[kel-reiley.livejournal.com]

sometimes i love you so much

[fragiletender.livejournal.com]

People are upset about this? Really? How odd. Gay slurs happen, are we meant to just go 'lalalala, it's all rosy in the garden and that sort of thing never happens'? I wasn't bothered by it, I thought it was very in character for a man with a very disturbed sense of reality who grew up in a less liberal time and I adored Ianto's response.

"People! Are you not loving the running joke about Ianto Jones's Very Bad Homosexual Day? Come on, this is the funniest shit ever."

Hadn't thought of that but when you put it like that, yeah, it's hysterical.

[supasass.livejournal.com]

7. As a queer person, I love my allies, but come to my side, not to my rescue.

The next protest I go to, I'm going to chant it loud and proud.

[wemblee.livejournal.com]

Can we please stop thinking the audience is stupid? Did anyone watch a mentally challenged guy with a history of alien abduction call Ianto a queer and say he smells different and then decide that this somehow implies true facts about gay people? REALLY? Are you actually afraid this is happening out there?

Word to all of this. I'm bi, I think every thing we ('we" as in "all humans everywhere") do or say is political, that what we put in our stories is important, that writers have certain responsibilities, and I don't think the writers crossed the line in this instance. Also, I'm sorry, but RTD is queer, and to me, that means he gets the benefit of the doubt regarding stuff like this. It'd be different if he were a straight dude (and maybe a straight guy penned it, but RTD's the showrunner and the buck stops with him), but he's not. This isn't to say that a queer person can never issue homophobic remarks or be self-hating (hello, most politicians in the U.S.!), but... come on.

[wemblee.livejournal.com]

BTW, maybe this is fanwanking or whatever, but I assumed that if Clem can smell that Ianto likes dudes, he can smell that Gwen also likes dudes; ie., if he can smell one orientation, he can smell 'em all. But Clem's heterosexist 'cause he lives in a heterosexist world, so the "queer" smell is notable to him where the "hetero" smell isn't. (Though I guess, if it's true that most people are actually bi, then that kind of fucks this theory, 'cause wouldn't he smell bisexuality on most people? But maybe he rationalizes it away somehow, idk.)

[phaetonschariot.livejournal.com]

5. People! Are you not loving the running joke about Ianto Jones's Very Bad Homosexual Day? Come on, this is the funniest shit ever. This thing that's only ever been a vague niggling issue for him because he's got no time and he's in the Torchwood bubble, and christ, it's Jack, has suddenly become the stupid topic people won't drop even while the world is ending. It's really funny, and if your life has even half of the weird serendipity mine has, you know that this sort of absurdity tends to cluster. It's hilarious, and it's RTD winking and nodding at us. Seriously, am I the only person who has had my own version of this? No way! NO WAY!

HAHA IT"S SO TRUE.

I love the awkward silence right after "OI!" and before "It's not 1965 anymore". Gwen and Rhys are just like "um. er. yes. *not quite sure what to do/where to look*"

[alchemistpotion.livejournal.com]

Love, you are right, I think. In fact, I still say 'queer' in the sence of 'odd' sometimes.

And the bit about this being TV and not true facts! Oh, thank GOD! I mean, I don't know that reality would survive Jack Harkness!