[personal profile] rm


I learnt the word queer when I was about eight, reading something or other. I didn't learn that it meant gay, just that it meant weird, and I thought it was a lovely word and I used it all the time.

One day, at camp, when I was twelve, I used it to describe a novel I was reading, and another little twelve-year-old looked at me wide eyed and asked in what manner it was homosexual, as they had not heard that it was. I did not understand, but by the end of the day, I learned I could never use the word queer again, not because it was offensive, but because it looked bad to talk about homosexual things.

When I went to university, it was a time of Riot Grrls and being confrontational. People wrote slut on themselves in lipstick, not to be cute and clever and get laid (which does seem to be a trend now), but to be angry and repellent. And people like me? Well, we were queer.

But queer was never an angry word for me, it was just mouth pleasure to say, and less clinical or multisyllabic than my other options (gay woman, bisexual, homosexual, lesbian, gender variant, etc.) and I liked it in the sort of ridiculous way a slight girl who happens to look like Oscar Wilde must. So it's been my word, for-like-EVER, not to make people uncomfortable, but because it's easiest for me. I like it.

Now sure, I've had queer used as an insult to me, and you know, insults are all about tone. When the waiter called me sir last night at the Algonquin, I practically puffed up with joy. When the idiot that works at my bank does it, when I'm wearing a dress, as some code for "ugly woman I don't want to deal with right now" I could punch someone. So sometimes queer is an insult and sometimes it's not.

One of the rules of thumb I've noticed about this is adjectives are more likely to be okay than nouns. If you're describing me as queer without vitriol, we're good. If you're describing me as "a queer" even without vitriol, we might have a problem. It's the same thing with being Jewish or describe as "a Jew." I've had people scream at me on the street "You Jew!" because of disputes over taxis and stuff. Nouns with implied (no matter how irrational) negative associations can be really scary.

And that's, of course, how Clem used "the queer" in talking about Ianto.

Now I've seen a lot of meta about whether Clem could really smell his orientation, or if it was about the scent of recent intimacy with Jack (when? in the backseat of the car at the end of Ep 2?) and whether saying things like this on TV is dangerous because it leads people to think queer people really are different and not just like everyone else, and oh, god, you can tell!

Man, I have so many more problems with all this meta than I do with what Clem said, even as, yeah, I would have hollered too.

1. As a queer person, I am different. And you can tell. This is not true of all queer people, but it's worth noting that I'm somewhat sick of people advocating that we're all just like everyone else. Hardly. We're not even all like each other. Get it?

2. The world has homophobia in it. Why shouldn't it be on TV not as a major plot point but as the real live background noise we deal with in the world -- even when fighting aliens apparently?

3. Can we please stop thinking that writers share the views of, and advocate the behaviors contained in, the material they write? I think Jack/Ianto in IHNIIHBT are codependent loons, although I also think they are beautiful. And have you fucking read Descensus -- an epic examination of the very high and ugly price of trying to preserve traditions no matter how ugly they become -- do you really think I think those characters are good just because I'm capable of justifying in their own heads for narrative sake where they are coming from? Because if you think I think those characters are right, as opposed to justified from their perspectives, I'm not even sure why you're still talking to me.

4. Can we please stop thinking the audience is stupid? Did anyone watch a mentally challenged guy with a history of alien abduction call Ianto a queer and say he smells different and then decide that this somehow implies true facts about gay people? REALLY? Are you actually afraid this is happening out there?

5. People! Are you not loving the running joke about Ianto Jones's Very Bad Homosexual Day? Come on, this is the funniest shit ever. This thing that's only ever been a vague niggling issue for him because he's got no time and he's in the Torchwood bubble, and christ, it's Jack, has suddenly become the stupid topic people won't drop even while the world is ending. It's really funny, and if your life has even half of the weird serendipity mine has, you know that this sort of absurdity tends to cluster. It's hilarious, and it's RTD winking and nodding at us. Seriously, am I the only person who has had my own version of this? No way! NO WAY!

6. I stand by what I said yesterday about the read GDL gives Ianto's reaction line. Outrage and personal processing: it's gracefully done and elevates the writing. Once again, Euros Lyn is a genius of a director. Torchwood doesn't always know why it's doing things, but it usually knows what it's doing. Trust.

7. As a queer person, I love my allies, but come to my side, not to my rescue.
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Date: 2009-07-09 04:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] louiseroho.livejournal.com
"Come to my side, not to my rescue" is my new message of the day.

I throw love in your general direction for that.

Date: 2009-07-09 04:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] firinel.livejournal.com
exactly this. it is a beautiful turn of phrase.

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Date: 2009-07-09 04:10 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rednwhiterose.livejournal.com
#5: When you put it like that, I can't help but LOL more so then I already am. You're right, Ianto is having a "Very Bad Homosexual Day", unfortunately, the whole is having an even bigger bad day, which negates Ianto's bad day, much to his chagrin I'm sure.

Date: 2009-07-09 04:10 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rednwhiterose.livejournal.com
"whole world". I hate my laptop, I really do.

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Date: 2009-07-09 04:15 pm (UTC)
ext_107588: (Default)
From: [identity profile] ophymirage.livejournal.com
Are you not loving the running joke about Ianto Jones's Very Bad Homosexual Day?

aagh... Alexander and the terrible, horrible, no good, very bad.. plot bunny.. aagh! *headdesks* *stomps off to find her copy*

Date: 2009-07-09 04:27 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rednwhiterose.livejournal.com
I loved that book as a kid.

Date: 2009-07-09 04:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jkpolk.livejournal.com
Also another point is just...the Clem character is arrested at chidhood in his trauma and insanity. It makes SENSE for a kid to be so socially uncouth and adds more resonance to his overall stuntedeness. These people are his saviors and he's still teasing in a bratty stupid way. Kids are idiots that way. It felt true to me.

Date: 2009-07-09 04:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rednwhiterose.livejournal.com
That's how I took it to mean--Clem is very much out of touch with reality, he's still a kid mentally, and he's scared and confused which results in him lashing out at people.
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Date: 2009-07-09 04:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thessalian.livejournal.com
http://www.bbc.co.uk/torchwood/

Go there, click on 'Episode Guide'. You'll see the episodes that have aired so far; you should be able to watch on iPlayer provided you're not running a Mac. (Irony, given the name, but hey.)

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Date: 2009-07-09 04:22 pm (UTC)
marcmagus: Me playing cribbage in regency attire (Default)
From: [personal profile] marcmagus
3. Seriously? That kind of thinking is prevalent? There are days I'm glad I don't read much wank.

4. Given #3, perhaps the audience is stupid. Or they're projecting their own stupidity onto the rest of the audience. Also, wtf? Granted, he does appear to have some sort of magical sense of smell, but seriously? I kind of wonder if he didn't say "I can smell it" just to fuck with the people who believe he can smell weird things...or some sort of complicated mental thing where he notices something in a normal way and thinks he's "smelling" it.

7. Well put.

Date: 2009-07-09 04:25 pm (UTC)
ext_47311: (Default)
From: [identity profile] frakkin-addict.livejournal.com
I totally agree. My brother is trans-male and has stated he prefers to just be called queer. He just got so sick of people trying to define him and his wife. I loved Ianto's reaction in that scene. Oi!

Date: 2009-07-09 04:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thessalian.livejournal.com
Preach it, sistah!

In related news, I note that there wasn't half the wank I'm hearing about that particular line when Ianto's brother-in-law called him an arse-bandit.

Date: 2009-07-09 04:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] demotu.livejournal.com
Everything you said. It's like the racist joke Gwen made - (a) please stop saying that makes the writers racist, (b) stop thinking the audience is dumb and can't see it for what it is - a real-life bias that exists and isn't going to go away for pretending it doesn't and (c) that they show this in the show makes it better, more adult, and more realistic.

Re: 7, yeah. There's outrage that is good because it helps us talk about things that are avoided, and then there's outrage that's bad because it prevents us from talking about things that aren't black and white.

Date: 2009-07-09 04:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amand-r.livejournal.com
People! Are you not loving the running joke about Ianto Jones's Very Bad Homosexual Day?

I love it so much I'm writing a children's book.

Date: 2009-07-10 08:12 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] phaetonschariot.livejournal.com
WITH ILLUSTRATIONS?

I kind of want a community for image-fic. That would be pretty rad. I love playing with media and format.

Date: 2009-07-09 04:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] summer-jackel.livejournal.com
I'm sighing with the loveliness of the writing while appreciating your point (although, alas, I have no TV and therefore no Torchwood in my life).

Also, "When the waiter called me sir last night at the Algonquin, I practically puffed up with joy" made my day. Aww! My own attempts to cross-dress are pretty much just for certain swing dances and I doubt anyone would ever take me for male, but I experienced a thrill of excitement at the thought, and your reality, of it nonetheless. Thanks.

Date: 2009-07-09 06:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] stardragonca.livejournal.com
[livejournal.com profile] rm, non-obvious subtext request: did the waiter think you male, or was he just intelligently polite?

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Date: 2009-07-09 04:59 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alba17.livejournal.com
Word.

My general impression was #5 and that's how I took Clem's remark. Plus, I found it funny that he can smell EVERYTHING, and Ianto's effrontery was amusing.

I haven't really read anyone's comments about this, so don't know what people are saying about this.

I have really short hair and sometimes I'm called sir or Mr. and it just amuses me - I don't otherwise look like a man in any way, shape or form - I think these people must be blind.
Edited Date: 2009-07-09 05:00 pm (UTC)

Date: 2009-07-09 05:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] afterthree.livejournal.com
Re: #2:

I like the way Torchwood has been addressing this issue -- not in one big episode like most other shows do, you know The One About Homophobia And Then May We Never Speak Of It Again -- but rather in the small, constant ways it comes up in real life. Like you said above, about the background noise as opposed to the major plot point.

Date: 2009-07-09 05:08 pm (UTC)
exbentley: (KISSES)
From: [personal profile] exbentley
5. As the head said to the Doctor, you are not alone!

also: this post. this, this this.

Date: 2009-07-09 05:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tenacious-snail.livejournal.com
1. As a queer person, I am different. And you can tell. This is not true of all queer people, but it's worth noting that I'm somewhat sick of people advocating that we're all just like everyone else. Hardly. We're not even all like each other. Get it?

Yes. That.
From: [identity profile] stardragonca.livejournal.com
Wow, dude, it's like we were all completely different people or sumthin.

Completely unrelated side note: country mouse me is a little overawed that you had drinks at the Algonquin last night. Because that's like, the Algonquin. Dude!

Date: 2009-07-09 05:23 pm (UTC)
ext_175410: (comma)
From: [identity profile] mamadar.livejournal.com
I don't watch TW, so I didn't hear the questionable line in context. But doesn't "queer" in British usage still mean "strange, unusual, out of the ordinary, funny" in a broad sense, and not specifically a sexual/gender identity sense? I occasionally use it that way myself, and I'm not British, just a closet Anglophile.

Date: 2009-07-09 05:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rm.livejournal.com
It was very explicitly used as a gay slur, but it was totally fine that it was.

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] threewalls - Date: 2009-07-09 05:35 pm (UTC) - Expand
From: [identity profile] stardragonca.livejournal.com
No, we can't. Apparently. I had this lesson driven into my brain with a spike hammer in grade school, around about the time you were born. But no. People think that. Any statement by anyone anywhere is identical to the opinion of the author.

Accept it thus. Heinlein thought that homosexuals smelled funny, Twain thought black people were inferior, and Shakespeare wanted to abolish the Monarchy because he had someone kill the king.

Date: 2009-07-09 05:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] therealycats.livejournal.com
I'm not gay nor am I in a same-sex relationship, so my perspective is in all likelihood different from those who are. Publicly I identify as straight for simplicity's sake; privately I prefer not to identify at all because I believe sexuality is fluid, and who you're usually attracted to isn't necessarily who you fall in love with (call me crooked if you must call me anything). But anyway, when Clem called Ianto "the queer," I didn't really read it as disgust or disapproval on his part. Like you said, he's an old man, and not only that, he experienced a trauma that has left him practically incapable of normal interaction. Kind of like I read Jack's "They were a gift" line, I read Clem's more as matter of fact. And I didn't interpret it as him saying that gays are any different (in terms of human, biological makeup) than straights either, just that he smells everything. He smelled Gwen's pregnancy. He smelled Jack. I think everyone has a unique smell anyway, and I think it's logical that men and women smell different from one another as well. So I just saw it as his smelling two distinct male scents on Ianto's body, whereas with Gwen he probably smelled hers and Rhys's, and vice versa.

I know that media portrayals of ANYTHING, be it gender, sexuality, religion, race--anything that marks people as different from other groups of society--are all subject to critiques of "OMG that's so -ist/phobic!" If a black man gets killed on CSI, say, that doesn't mean that the producers of CSI are racist and trying to kill off all people of African descent. I think there are valid criticisms in some instances, but I also think this world as a whole has gotten so touchy and so eager to hide behind the veil of political correctness lest they face the ugly truth that maybe, just maybe, they are a little bit prejudiced in one way or another. But overall I think that people just need to lighten the fuck up and stop viewing every waking moment as someone having a vendetta against them.

Date: 2009-07-09 06:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] penguineggs.livejournal.com
Cough, cough. Clem is not "an old man". He was about 10 in 1965 which makes him in his mid fifties, depending on when CoE is supposed to be happening. I agree with the point about about his development being arrested at that age (we see it happening, in that he's still on the kids wavelength) and, of course, homosexuality was still illegal in 1965 and, given he's spent most of his life institutionalised, I'm not quite sure where he's supposed to have grasped gay lib, anyway.

Incidentally, it's always possible that he doesn't have a heightened sense of smell in fact, but ESP which manifests itself as smell.

Date: 2009-07-09 05:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] stardragonca.livejournal.com
"Come to my side, not to my rescue."
My next printed T-shirt!
And I want your name to follow the quotes. Please?

Date: 2009-07-09 06:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pogrebin.livejournal.com
Yes, this. I said something similar in my reaction post-- but this is a far more articulate, thorough and detailed analysis of that moment. And so, yes, thank you.

(Re: 6, I think it's nearly impossible to argue otherwise, in terms of GDL's delivery? It's personal outrage that's very quickly replaced with a moment of thought, processing and professionalism-- and even through the professionalism he still says, rather primly, "It's not 1965 any more". That part isn't as confrontational, but he says it anyway, because he is. not. going. to. take. that. shit. Even from an asset.)

I didn't realise that people were freaking out about Clem being able to smell queerness. I mean, he can smell pregnancy and aliens and, apparently, a man he met in 1965 (ie, Jack) so uh, logic/normal rules of life don't really apply here, right?

A point that I made that ties in to your point 2-- is that Jack, despite being all groundbreaking and omnisexual, isn't really a useful character in terms of confronting queer experience in the 21st century. He's not from the 21st century, and barrels through the universe like a massive anachronistic be-coated force of nature. It would be almost-- weird to see him face any sort of homophobia on screen. Whereas Ianto is a normal bloke, who through sleeping with Jack has ended up labelling himself to the outside world. Yes, in his head it might not be 'men', and 'just Jack', but hey, in the 21st century people tend to assume you're gay rather than bi. He's the real site for any discussion of queerness/homophobia/the insecurity of being 'other'-- and it's about bloody time we saw a bit of that on screen. So good on Children of Earth, frankly!

offtopic sartorialness

Date: 2009-07-09 06:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] perlandria.livejournal.com
No one I know has used this. It is just now making the rounds. But the idea is intriguing. Don't let the term Jeans stop you, they have suits and shirts.

http://www.makeyourownjeans.com/

Although I am not sure how I feel about the concept of special herbal tea soaked clothing for health... Ummm....
http://www.makeyourownjeans.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=109&products_id=333
Edited Date: 2009-07-09 06:59 pm (UTC)

Date: 2009-07-09 07:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] darthhellokitty.livejournal.com
Part of why it felt jarring was that we've been soaking in our special Torchwood universe, where nobody cares who you're sleeping with. When the team is doing Torchwood 24/7, nobody is calling anybody "a queer". But now they (and we) are chased out into the world, where not everyone they meet (and especially not this poor traumatized guy who's been institutionalized all his life) is going to have that attitude.

I'll come to your side any old time.

Date: 2009-07-09 07:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] penguineggs.livejournal.com
People! Are you not loving the running joke about Ianto Jones's Very Bad Homosexual Day? Come on, this is the funniest shit ever. This thing that's only ever been a vague niggling issue for him because he's got no time and he's in the Torchwood bubble, and christ, it's Jack, has suddenly become the stupid topic people won't drop even while the world is ending.


Yes! There's an incredibly similar joke in the book of the Day of the Triffids where the heroine, Josella, once made the rash mistake of publishing a book called "Sex is My Adventure"(which wasn't nearly as racy as the title made it sound, but no-one bothered to read more than the title before condemning it). And the world has ended, and in the decayed ruins of London she still has to deal with random people saying, "My God! You're that Josella! The author of..."

It wouldn't surprise me if it were a deliberate homage.

Date: 2009-07-09 07:51 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] 1-mad-squirrel.livejournal.com
I've been wondering if Clem even meant queer as a gay slur. He may have just meant it as in "strange". Maybe there's something unusual about Ianto that he can smell.

Date: 2009-07-09 08:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rm.livejournal.com
he said "who's the queer" -- I've never heard queer used as a noun to not mean gay.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] 1-mad-squirrel.livejournal.com - Date: 2009-07-09 08:13 pm (UTC) - Expand
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