rm | [fic] art for Red and Fourth

[fic] art for Red and Fourth

laurab1 made me this awesome art for Red and Fourth.

Click on image for full-size.

And since we're here, I actually want to talk about it, because I went through a couple of thoughts about it, and I'm still sorta in a place with that story.

In the first draft of the story I had this long scene at a party where Jack and Martin first meet. And Jack's an asshole and Martin's all "whatever" and disinterested. And I think this really speaks to that. Of course, the other thing it speaks to, which I didn't include in the story is Jack's public life with Martin. While always a D/s relationship, at a given point Jack is also very much the boyfriend and also very much a part of the business (probably in a few ways, their deal is not about monogamy), so I realized looking at this there's actually this whole circle of identity for Jack there, as Martin shoots him down for acting like an asshole playboy (which is Jack covering for how fucked up he is anyway) but at a given point Jack's also playing that character in public as part of adding to the image of Martin's business.

Anyway, yeah. The story may be sparse, but I know tons and tons about the space of it.

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I'm awake... Sorta...

He's both the boyfriend and a part of business, meaning he services other consumers/customers in this brothel/matchmaking parlour... you mentioned in an earlier post that Martin has a daughter, was there any kind of communication between Jack and her (or is that not relevant)?

I'm a bit all over the place.

Awesome cover for the story.

One of the things that's interesting about Martin and Jack to me is that they both have a lot of history that has nothing to do with each other (Jack more, obviously, but not all that much more, if you don't count the buried in the earth factor -- I mean, compared to Ianto who is in his early 20s when they meet). I think it's one of the things that makes a huge difference, not just that Martin's a fucking grownup, but because there's no need to go into the past of each other's lives except as its on offer (which isn't something Ianto's really capable of in terms of personality, age, and the elephant in the room that is Lisa). So, I think the daughter thing is sort of no big deal. She's an adult child that Martin has a functional if distant relationship with (more like a beloved, eccentric uncle). He gets along with her mother, it's all very fine. So when Jack meets her she's self-possessed and curious, and but it probably takes her a bit to warm to him, because Jack's public act always seems so fucking shallow, you know? But I'm sure they see each other over the years and it's distant and awkward and kind in all the right ways, and Jack's certainly in touch with her when Martin gets sick (I don't imagine she's there for ages before his death, they were just never that close, but she shows up, etc). It's not an idyllic thing, her and her father, but it's way less dysfunctional than any relationship Jack's ever managed to have with any of his adult children. And as to the whole Jack not aging thing? I think it's the thing that isn't discussed because once it's spoken about, it can't be unspoken about, which is really the problem there.

(I have a lot of OCs I could write about ad infinitum - Annie, Dovev (from IHNIIHBT) and now Martin. Maybe I need to dump them all into their own story, although I don't think they'd much like each other. I think Annie would want to strangle Dovev, in point of fact.

I remember Dovev, he and Ianto got along very well.

I get what you mean about Jack not ageing and it not being spoken about. Apart from Lisa, I think Jack's immortality was also something of an elephant in the room, though to a much lesser extent, because I do think Ianto got a kick out of being with a man who couldn't die and I think Jack revelled in cradle robbing - I don't think Jack was Ianto's first/only man, but certainly the first man he loved and seeing as Ianto is rooted in 21st century labels, it probably gave him a doozy to be with a man like Jack.

I really like the sparse details of the story that reveal so much of Martin's persona; the assumption is that we already know Jack and the little details (like the matchmaking and the story telling, he's a sci-fi fan!) are just delicious. Jack and he would talk pulp sci-fi wouldn't they.

They would totally talk shitty pulp novels. Hell, they'd read shitty pulp novels to each other and laugh like fucking idiots.

And man Ianto really, really, wanted to fuck Dovev, but in that story is pretty onogamous and had no ability to cope with circumstances -- another time and place though (and actually, Kali and I have a story we wlll be writing eventually in the IHNIIHBT universe that's set a couple of years after Mountains in which Ianto does sleep with someone else and it's a little weird, because it only becomes a big deal because Ianto's weird about it and then Jack's weird about Ianto being weird and Jack finally gets that Ianto _needs_ him to be weird about it.

I really wanted Ianto to fuck Dovev! Just, man, calm down and go with the flow, for once! :P

Jack is good at being weird, but not very good at getting why people are weird about stuff that is totally, ya know, okay. Sex shouldn't be this awkward thing... he must think we're so tragic in our repression.

Totally random and possibly totally off-topic: I've been trying to think what music, other than Big Band, Jazz and Blues Jack would like... or more to the point, what music Ianto would get him to listen to at some point. I may be projecting (of course I am) but I think Jack really likes Leonard Cohen's I'm Your Man, though I think as an anthem is suits Ianto more. And of course Who By Fire, if ever there was a Jack song.

God I'm all over the place.

I was thinking that Jack would probably get Leonard Cohen, but then he probably had a contemporary experience of it at a given point, as opposed to someone like Ianto who sorta probably came to the catalog all at once. Also, in one of the tie-in novels, Jack is walking around listening to an out-of-time ipod like thing in the 70s listening to glam rock.

I have like the whole story of Dovev's life in my head, which honestly, I should write down either for fic or for the sake of one of the 8 billion things I need to do a submission for in the next couple of months.

And honestly, as much as Dovev was totally into Ianto, even if Ianto didn't have issues, that shit would have been awkward because Dovev was all overhwlemed by Ianto's deal with the FoB, and I think it would have been kinda weird and starfucky tangling up with their actual sincere interest in each other.

Also, in one of the tie-in novels, Jack is walking around listening to an out-of-time ipod like thing in the 70s listening to glam rock.
Jack is a Bowie Fan! I love it!
I cannot get the tie-in novels here, it's awful, I feel so alone and shipping costs tons and I am a poor Uni Student. Alas.

I can see that, the whole deal with FoB making the interest be all "is this real, is this something I want or am I just taking what I can have in the moment", but the ST was truly amazing.

The fact that Martin is an adult makes a big difference. Jack can't help but rob cradles, but he doesn't have to look like he's doing so - which he totally was with Ianto (and possibly others in his life), in the fact that, as you said, Martin doesn't let Jack get away with any shit... with Ianto there was way more wiggle room - in built hierarchies hello! Despite them subverting that from time to time (with Jack deferring to Ianto in "Meat" for instance or the "shivers" scene in "Sleeper").

Also, I think Jack constantly forgets how young Ianto is. I think in Jack's head Ianto doesn't seem different to him than someone who's like 30-something, because Jack's literally forgotten what ones 20s are like. Part of the problem is that with his history as a soldier and a con artist Jack never had his own normal experience of being in his 20s so he can't extrapolate. And with the eternal life thing, I have to think at a given point he's very much like "well, they all seem young to me, so fuck it, at least someone who is young won't mind if I'm a condescending ass." But Ianto minds, like woah, and it's the fact that he minds that really does pull Jack in emotionally. Whoooops.

Re: books -- we can get them pretty cheap here (from a place that does free shipping). Do you want me to see if they can be gotten to you cheap through someone (me) shipping them to you as opposed to what the stupid stores do?

Ianto is easily peeved. I'd really much rather be his friend/coffee-buddy than be his enemy. I cringe to think what he did to co-workers at TW1 who patronised him and considered him inferior for whatever reason.

Re: books - any info would be great! Prices, etc would be fantastic. Because Amazon is, well, meh and ordering it from the local shops costs tons and look at me funny ("You want what now?") and all the other on-line shops are either US or Euro-centric and I'm in neither!

Basically I know I can find the older ones for you for about USD$8, and then it's just a matter of shipping, but I know that's way ass cheaper than anything Amazon will tell you.

And yeah, Ianto has an absolutely vicious streak, which is one reason why I think Jack is comfortable being with him. He knows Ianto has it in him to be terrible yet, he's not John Hart. But it means Jack has to feel less bad about who he is in relation, as opposed to say Gwen, who I think makes Jack feel guilty about his shit.

Edited 2009-09-26 02:59 (UTC)

Sounds very promising. Thank you so very much!

I wrote about this right after CoE, but knowing about Alice changed my whole perspective about Gwen (and Suzie to a certain extent); as much as Jack loves Gwen (in various ways) other than the guilt thing and the whole her trying to change him, because she would try, I really view their relationship as this very weird, incestuous Father-Daughter thing. Making Jack not competition to Rhys, but a father figure trying to make sure his little girl has the man that will be good for her (which he utterly failed with Alice).

Do you think Jack knew that Ianto lied about his dad, his whole family in fact? (I'm in the camp that thinks he Ianto spilled his beans after Cyber!Lisa)

I think Jack knew by the time Ianto died and Ianto knew Jack knew. I'm willing to buy the argument that it was something they never talked about and it was just a polite fiction... but:

1. Jack would have to know Ianto was lying about the Electro, if he thought about it, because Jack was in Cardiff when Ianto was a child and the Electro was closed then.

2. The thing about the inseam measuring? Never ever sounded right to my ear, and I put it down to a no one knew how to get those lines out to make them work, but I can certainly read it now as Ianto has already told Jack the truth, but they are very happy to play this game (which is more interesting in light of this, because it really does imply that Ianto and the suits and related fussiness isn't just performance but fetish).

While writers write the show and now actors, I really do take a lot of cues on the answers to Torchwood's weird plot holes and inconsistencies from what the actos ahve said, because those are the choices they decided to work with in lieu of other information. So to that end, JB and GDL both say Ianto told Jack the truth and that maybe Jack was the only person he ever told (i.e., Ianto lied to Lisa out of shame, and then shit happened before he could confess)., and even if this is after-the-fact stuff to make fans happy con shit, it makes sense to me, it makes sense with the writing and the performances, and so that's pretty much when I'm running with, although I don't have an idea of what that confession was like, although it's something I want to explore in a fic at some point. I do think that once he told Jack, and realized no one else knew other than his family of course, I think he probably made the choice not to tell anyone else the truth -- not because the secret mattered anymore (Gwen certainly wouldn't have cared), but what other symbollic thing was ever going to exist as a near object between him and Jack other than this information? I think it was, to a given extent, not just Ianto engaging in narrative in a manner Jack might not have been fully consciously aware of, but of engaging in ritual that Jack was similarly maybe not thinking about (or happy to abide with not mention if it makes the kid happy -- lord knows).

All I can do it *nod* and promise a proper reply a little later.
I must sleep for a bit, it's been a hell of a day.

Thanks for the info on the novels and fantastic discussion... I really needed this.

Toddles, talk to you later!

Yup, feel better. I owe you an email.

That simple statement just made feel all sad just now.
But really, if that was the way it had to go, there are worse things in life.

Why did it make you feel sad?
Jack loves everyone (differently, but everyone nonetheless), I think it takes a whole lot more for Ianto to love someone sexually and romantically, he's a very devoted lover.
I'm convinced that Ianto has been in love with two people in his 26 years on Earth... sex is another thing entirely, but sex when he's in a relationship with the people he's in love with, that's different.
What's the word used in this forum? Obsessusexual? Am I right?

Awesome art is AWESOME!

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[fic] art for Red and Fourth

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Certainly the first man he loved

Re: Certainly the first man he loved

This awesome art