White Collar, 1.7 & 1.8

[rm]

Holy shit.



So is Neal the viewpoint character? Is the true quandry not whether Neal can be trusted, but whether Peter can?

Because I gotta tell you, right now? I don't trust Peter at all. Actually, I trust Peter some, but hot damn I'm angry at him. It's like how I have no time of day for people who can't keep their life vaguely organized but think they're entitled to some luscious little bevvy of subs calling them Master Whatever. Peter has done a fucking number of Neal's already screwed up head and now, in my book, he's obligated to actually give something of a shit about Neal on some level other than how useful/entertaining he is. Which means being a little bit careful of him. Whatever Peter's game is with Kate -- and remember, we only have his narrative of it to Neal -- is not being careful of Neal. And it's not okay! And here's the thing, like Neal, I want to like Peter. And I want to trust Peter.

But OMFGWTF is wrong with you, Peter?

Because, you know what, Peter is fucked up. He is, in fact, out of his damn mind regarding Neal and I'm not sure he even gets that, hence the shitty, careless, highly what the fuck behavior going on here as regards Neal's sanity and this Kate bullshit.

WOW, I am so pissed.

ANYWAY. Meanwhile. I still kinda hate the Kate plotline. Because I just can't see her and Neal together. But it is what it is, and it sure makes all the other dynamics way fascinating.

You know, I thought I had something intelligent to say here, but I could just go for screens on Neal's big eyes and his need for Peter to actually be what he says he is, so yeah. I'll shut up now.

Peter is being an asshole dom, and Neal's hanging himself with his own intelligence. And it's about Kate so they can avoid talking about it or some shit.

NOT COOL, PETER.

Also how much did I love Neal's "Just because I don't like guns doesn't mean I can't use one."

Comments

[laura47.livejournal.com]

I swoon for Neal's beautiful blue eyes.

And on a meta(*) level I kind of want things to get fucked up and broken with Neal and Peter so they can fix them because I want to watch that.

But on a Watsonian (?) level, god damn it Peter, you can't treat someone like that when you are... what you are to Neal.

* Doylist? Is this Doylist?

[lefaym.livejournal.com]

Okay, so I totally hadn't thought of it that way -- I'd seen Peter's actions re: Kate as an attempt to protect Neal, but what you're saying does make sense. I wonder if future episodes will make you see it differently or not; I live in anticipation of your future White Collar posts. :) (Seriously, I've really been enjoying them.)

I suppose, since we're all about teasing out the Torchwood parallels, it would be kind of like Jack finding Lisa in the basement and then using Ianto's hope that she can recover to manipulate him? (Ha! Kate is totally Lisa -- the symbol of false hope, the romanticised ideal.)

[realtsunamigirl.livejournal.com]

It's interesting, because I have a totally different take on how Peter views Neal. Granted, it is paternalistic, ranging occasionally into patronising, but I get genuine caring from him. In fact, I felt a teeny bit cheated on how fast they shuffled into the buddy cop/agent/insert-law-enforcement-cliché-here trope. That eased a bit after Peter made a comment on how they talked for three years by making move/counter-move in his pursuit of Neal. It emphasised the idea that they had had a long term close relationship in the past and built up a healthy respect for each other. Factor in Neal's obvious distaste for weapons of any kind, there's no way Peter would tolerate violence, and you can see a kind of Lionheart and Salad-a-in relationship of noble enemies. Give them the chance to work on the same side and a little bit of time to sort out the bugs and voila, positive relationship.

I see Peter's response to Kate as exactly the same sort of one that Mozzie would show, had he the slightest spine when it comes to Neal. In following Neal, Peter was also watching Kate and doing so without Neal's love-haze. I would bet you dollars to doughnuts that he has a *far* better grip on what kind of a person she is and is genuinely trying to protect Neal and keep him from fucking up a potentially good life by getting roped in by her again. He may be going about it the wrong way, but he's not exactly the most capably equipped person when it comes to expressing himself.

I trust Peter with what he thinks is best for Neal's heart and mind; whether that's actually what *is* best is another matter.

Besides. I think of El kind of like how I see Kaylee from Firefly, if she says a thing is so, it is. There's no way she would be with him if he were just dicking around with Neal. (And I mean that figuratively, because even *my* devout slasher's heart cannot go there. Just no:-P)

[rm.livejournal.com]

I get genuine caring from him

I do too, which is why whatever he's up to with Kate is striking me as such a dick move, even if he does think it's the right thing. But it's reading to me like Peter's gotten a little too enamoured of his own cleverness to truly do the best thing here.

[rm.livejournal.com]

It is Doylist.

ANd yeah, exactly.

[rm.livejournal.com]

I do think Peter thinks he's doing the right thing or something. I mean, I hope so. But I can't be 100% sure now. And I feel like his clever brain has got him so involved in the problem of controlling Neal that he hasn't thought about how not okay for Neal whatever he's up to with Kate is.

[elainasaunt.livejournal.com]

This. And I'm pretty sure that, if he's even aware of the D/s undertones of their partnership, he doesn't know about the responsibility it implies. He doesn't realize he's being an asshole dom.

Also, his long history with Neal has, perhaps without his even realizing, played havoc with his sense of right and wrong - a theme that gets stronger as the season goes on.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

You have a unique perspective--I'm really enjoying your reaction posts.

This one surprises me--what do you think Peter's motivation is? I had a different response; these two episodes were when it first hit me how much Peter actually does care deeply about Neal. In 1x7, he calls Neal his "partner," is pretty livid at Fowler for catching him, and puts protecting Neal above doing his job. (Even before Neal shows up in his kitchen with justifications, Peter's searching for him via "road blocks and wanted posters," which he knows won't work.)

So then he goes to see Kate, which seemed to me like Peter letting his protective instincts toward Neal take over his common sense. I kind of hate the characterization of Kate as this evil siren jezebel woman tempting poor woobie Neal to the dark side, but at the same time I love Peter getting all "he's awesome and he's mine and you can't have him."

Whatever Peter's game is with Kate -- and remember, we only have his narrative of it to Neal -- is not being careful of Neal.

This is what surprises me, because I saw Peter's interaction with Kate as being entirely about Peter trying to protect Neal, in a way that's unwise because Peter's gotten so caught up in his affection for Neal that it's overpowering his better judgment. I love that Kate is Neal's weakness and Neal is Peter's.

That whole scene in the comic book suffocation chamber thing (OMG, this show!) is one of my favorites, too. Because we get the life-and-death honesty of Neal's trust for Peter, but then we get reciprocation from Peter. After Neal finds the emergency switch, Peter pulls out his gun and is about to open the door so that Neal can breathe, even though he's outnumbered and the other guy has a way bigger gun. There's a definite possibility that the other guy would've shot first or that they'd both have shot each other. Thankfully the FBI shows up just in time, but for a moment there I think Peter was totally about to risk his life for Neal.

Also how much did I love Neal's "Just because I don't like guns doesn't mean I can't use one."

That was seriously awesome.

[rm.livejournal.com]

I don't know what Peter's motivation is. And I do think it's obvious he cares deeply about Neal, and that's actually why I'm so furious. Peter's not evil, just thick and being careless. I think we know how deeply Peter cares about Neal. Peter maybe even knows how deeply Peter cares about Neal. But he doesn't get the implications of that for his own behavior, how it tests his loyalties or how really vulnerable Neal is to him. And that's why I'm really fucking irate at the character.

Even if Peter's interaction with Kate is exactly as he says it is and about his concern for Neal, having done that and waited to tell Neal about it -- even if it was the right choice for Neal's physical safety (i.e., get the job done first), really, obviously, unavoidably was going to hurt Neal both as regards his relationship with Kate and his relationship with Peter. And we saw that happen. And I'm just like "Peter, HOW CAN YOU NOT SEE THAT THIS PLAN IS NOT SO BRILLIANT."

Granted, I'd tracked on Peter's ring a few episode's back. So I wasn't surprised so much as I was like "you fucker."

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

And I'm just like "Peter, HOW CAN YOU NOT SEE THAT THIS PLAN IS NOT SO BRILLIANT."

Heh, but it's the same way Neal's "I'll just break out of prison with three months left on my sentence so I can go find Kate" plan is not so brilliant. They both make stupid decisions re: protecting the people they love.

I don't think Peter kept his meeting with Kate from Neal because he wanted Neal to get the job done first so much as he was afraid of how Neal would react. He tells El earlier in the episode that he's afraid to tell Neal because he doesn't think Neal trusts him enough to understand. Then after the "I trust you with my life" suffocation chamber thing, Peter realizes that Neal does trust him and so he correspondingly trusts Neal enough to listen to the truth and understand that Peter meant well. And I think Neal gets it-- he doesn't accept Peter's insistence that Kate doesn't care about him, but he does believe that Peter was trying to look out for him.

So yeah it hurt their relationship briefly, but then Peter explained and now they love each other again. Or whatever. I guess I didn't see it as malicious on Peter's part, and yeah it was careless, but it was careless because HE JUST LOVES NEAL SO MUCH.

unavoidably was going to hurt Neal both as regards his relationship with Kate and his relationship with Peter

Well, Peter's intentionally trying to hurt Neal's relationship with Kate, because he thinks Kate is bad for Neal. (And um, he's pretty objectively right--even if Kate is as pure as the driven snow, Neal keeps making stupid decisions and endangering himself because of his feelings for her.)

I don't really think Peter's interference is okay (if I was Neal, I'd be pissed), but at the same time it makes me-as-a-viewer love Peter more because of how emotionally entangled and overprotective he is toward Neal.

[rm.livejournal.com]

See, I'm totally buying everything you have to say, and it's not like Peter had a lot of good choices there, but I'm still like "dude, not cool" and I'm still questioning what else we're going to find out about Peter and whether or not he's as trustworthy as we all (audience and Neal) want to believe he is.

It's really a case of Peter being, I think, very tone deaf to the situation he's in. Much like how he didn't know what to buy for El for their anniversary.

As regards of my "get the job done first" comment, what I meant is that I think Peter was like "this will be volatile, and this operation is dangerous, so I can't let Neal freak out before we're in the clear on this." Which, you know, for already having done something stupid, was the right call on Peter's part.

[tjs-whatnot.livejournal.com]

So, yeah, imagine watching that first one...sitting there stunned and a feeling of betrayal and WTF and then...then...HAVING TO WAIT FOR LIKE A MONTH AND A HALF for the next episode??? That was their midseason cliff hanger!!

I was so emotionally spent after that month and a half that I was ready to forgive Peter a lot of things if he could just make me understand a bit... and though I still think there is something "not quite right" about Peter in regard to Kate, I got over the betrayal bit about as fast as Neal did. It just hurt too bad to think ill of Peter any longer...but I think he's a richer, more intriguing character for it. If that makes sense...

[rm.livejournal.com]

As another commenter says, from a Doylist perspective I'm thrilled and totally agree with you. From the part of me (that I'm trying to beat off with a stick) that sort of identifies with Neal and his eight-billion issues, still pissed. I'm hoping to manage to watch 9 and 10 tonight, but I've opera tickets.

[timelady.livejournal.com]

Yay for White Collar! But you really need to catch up! I utterly hate the whole Kate plotline. There's just something about her that doesn't strike me as being genuine or that she really doesn't care for Neal (you would think she would have at least tried to tell him some of what was going on). Me thinks she's actually masterminding whatever is going on, or is on it with the mastermind and not a captive at all considering she has free run of New York it seems like. In theory they removed her from the show in the last episode this season (though I wouldn't be surprised if we see her again).

Peter really does have Neal wrapped around his little finger, and the sad thing is Neal trusts him. (I'm hoping they're eventually going to put Peter in a situation where he has to admit the same thing to Neal, but right now it just isn't happening. What we are getting is just as interesting though with Peter having to bend his morals and trust people who have greyed morals. Like Neal and Mozzie. That episode was just so awesome where he actually trusted Mozzie in his house to sweep for bugs. Though I hear next season we're going to be focusing on who Fowler is working for. My bets are on it being a mentor of Neal's or maybe even his father). There's this episode where Neal is totally drugged out and he calls Peter to help him, and while he's pretty much out of it, he tells Peter that he completely trusts him more than anyone else in the world. More than Kate or Mozzie. Though I'm wondering just how much of that was true (though my friend seems to think it was true).

I personally really like Alex, and hope we get to see more of her in the future. She just seems like a lot better match for Neal than Kate, even with her own trust issues.

As for me, I could go for pages on Neal's bare chest... (and his blue eyes, yes! Oh, that episode where he got drugged, he was singing Sinatra very loudly... Who knew he could sing well?) ...(yes, there was this scene in the final episode where he had his shirt off for sculpting this statue of Vulcan)... um...where was I?...

[laughingacademy.livejournal.com]

Oh man, the moment when Kate enters the hotel room and Peter is there waiting for her? Was the mid-season hiatus cliffhanger. The fans went APESHIT. And then came the chorus of "What the FUCK, Peter?" when the show returned.

[timelady.livejournal.com]

http://video.usanetwork.com/series/white_collar/interviews_1/
One hour interview with Neal and Peter. OMG there are so many good moments in this!

[therealycats.livejournal.com]

Haha, I'm so glad you're getting into this show. I love reading your reviews/reactions. The Kate storyline is annoying, and I think most of fandom is ready for it to come to its end. I'm also glad that they brought Dihann Carroll back because I was afraid they were going to introduce her as Neal's landlady and then just not acknowledge her anymore.

What's your take, if any, on Lauren? I can't remember if you weighed in on her yet. Like I said before, I just don't find her convincing as an agent, and I'm glad on the back half of the season they decreased her screen time.