Buffy/Angel update

[rm]

Angel 1.10 "Parting Gifts" - I new that demon was bad news when he showed up, but I actually thought he was leading someone to Angel; especially when we first saw that cross boy. Oh Wesley! You fucking dork. And you can't weather leather pants _and_ a leather jacket. Fabulous suit though when that reappeared on the scene. I also got the first glimmer of why people say I will identify with this character, but gee, I hope there's more to it than the self-hatred defense mechanism thing. Also the eye stuff was really hard to watch.

So did Doyle really give his gift to Cordelia or was this just one of those things that TPTB decided on and everyone is being romantic and making it about Doyle? That all was handled in a really lovely way.

Once again: we may be pissed at Whedon for who he kills, but he walks us through the aftermath process. On one hand, we can argue that that's both good, and responsible, TV. On the other hand, I feel like it does keep us at a distance. Whedon deaths are never deaths that happen to us, because we watch the aftermath for those who get left behind. Not us. I'll need to watch this episode again for my paper even though it wasn't all that -- because Doyle had no possessions to leave behind, and that gets discussed that all that is tangible in his death is his absence.

Angel/Cordelia/Wesley is my new OT3.

Also, I thought Angel's initial confrontation with the Oracles at the beginning was interesting, because jeez, that's one of the conversations we've been having about Ianto in Torchwood fandom, isn't it?

Buffy 4.10 "Hush" - I'd actually seen this episode randomly long ago and far away. I'm not even sure I knew it was Buffy. It's creepy and well done, and I imagine it was a PitA to film, in terms of getting people to remain quiet and move their mouths clearly enough that non lip-readers could get it. Also the camera work and effects for the Gentlemen was probably a big hassle too. Great TV, and I loved that Buffy's scream was a girl's scream and it was powerful, but ultimately, this wasn't necessarily about the themes that move me.

But I did like that Giles's girlfriend was back, but wow I was surprised she wasn't in some way connected to the occult/the Watchers or SOMETHING. I didn't expect her to be a mundane sort of bad girl (because she does give off the vibe of totally being able to keep up with Ripper's ways).

Buffy 4.11 "Doomed" - While this episode advances the larger arcs in a meaningful way, it's just not very good. Especially at the end there where we know the demons are the sacrifices, and Buffy jumps into the hellmouth and then whatever happens happens off-screen and all we get it a shot of Riley pulling on some rope. It's really a TERRIBLE episode, and only isn't widely regarded as TERRIBLE because it's not "Inca Mummy Girl" which will live in infamy FOREVER.

Buffy 4.12 "A New Man" - I love when random people know random demon languages on these shows! I also love Spike leaning against walls and smoking cigarettes and pouting like he's a rent-boy. And no matter how many times I"ve almost decided I like Buffy's psych teacher, no, no I actually hate her. When demon!GIles chased her, I literally exclaimed "go paunchy middle-aged demon Giles!"

Also, Ethan Rayne, what the fuck?

1. You never have more than half a plan.
2. You never have more than half a reason for your plan.
3. You can actually throw a decent punch, but won't at Giles.
4. THAT SHIRT.
5. Dude, you're like John Hart if John Hart was a pathetic washed-up impotent drunk.

Also, interesting to see we have a potential Gitmo narrative long before 9/11 actually happened.

Comments

[stephl.livejournal.com]

THAT SHIRT.

There are times I suspect that the whole point of that episode was to get Giles into that shirt.

[lefaym.livejournal.com]

Also, I thought Angel's initial confrontation with the Oracles at the beginning was interesting, because jeez, that's one of the conversations we've been having about Ianto in Torchwood fandom, isn't it?

Yeah, it is. I also think it highlights something about what many of us expect from stories as opposed to what many of us expect from real life. I know when I watched the episodes about Doyle's death a few months ago, I was struck by how satisfying I found it, because Doyle's sacrifice really meant something; he saved people. When TPTB refused to bring Doyle back because it would cheapen his sacrifice, it made sense to me. I thought about why I couldn't feel the same way about Ianto, and to me personally, it's because I expect stories to be meaningful, and if I invest in a character and they die, I want them to die in a way that is meaningful to me -- and Ianto's death simply wasn't meaningful to me. And I know that sometimes (maybe most of the time) death in real life is meaningless too, and I know that meaningless death can be the point of a story (and, in fact, I think that Joss Whedon does that extremely well, as I think you will see in S5 of Buffy) -- but I suppose Ianto's death didn't make enough sense to me on a Doylist level for me to appreciate its meaninglessness on a Watsonian level (and there's the added stab that Ianto's supposedly heroic sacrifice was a failure and he actually got people killed rather than saving anyone). I know that Ianto's death was meaningful to you on both those levels, and to many others, so I can see why for you, that argument made by TPTB in Angel would resonate.

I'm looking forward to seeing how you respond to Wesley's character arc. It is, IMO, the best character arc in Angel. It does go to some very dark places though, and yeah, there are a lot of self-hatred issues, but it's also very much an arc of becoming.

Btw, did you finish White Collar yet?

[kel-reiley.livejournal.com]

Wesley's character arc. It is, IMO, the best character arc in Angel. - agreed!

[ithinkitisayit.livejournal.com]

I'm looking forward to seeing how you respond to Wesley's character arc. It is, IMO, the best character arc in Angel.

I agree! It's also the most depressing. I cried for him after the series finale :(

Wesley's the best character arc, but I definitely think my favourite character arc is Cordelia.

[lefaym.livejournal.com]

I loved what they did with Cordelia up to about the middle of S3, but after that... well, I won't comment on it because I don't want to spoil rm. :)

[ithinkitisayit.livejournal.com]

Oh, yeah. I forgot about that!

[rm.livejournal.com]

Have totally not finished White Collar yet. Patty liked the one episode we watched together well enough, but she's not all over it like I am, so we've been focusing on Buffy and Angel although I really should get to it.

Also, thanks for the warning re: Wesley's character arc. I suspect I'm going to find this unpleasant.

[kalichan.livejournal.com]

D. and I might start our own Buffy/Angel rewatch. It's been forever! Hahahah, Ethan is totally John Hart, but less so.

[kel-reiley.livejournal.com]

apparently, it was always joss whedon's plan to give cordy the visions, therefore doyle was always slated to die when and how he did - i think JW is a master of planning and foreshadowing, and his character deaths, while gut-wrenching, have never incited the kind of anger (in me) that i've seen over... a certain other death

'hush' is srsly one of my all-time favorite tv episodes ever - i can't remember who said it, but i read it once in one of my film texts: (inexact quote is inexact) "the quickest way to ruin a film is to add dialogue."
i think 'hush' made use of the silences and visual very well (even though there was LOTS of dialogue, we just couldn't hear it) - not that i believe dialogue ruins films (i LOVE dialogue), but it's one thing to have a well-written script and another to have a well-made film

[thatwordgrrl.livejournal.com]

Yes...and no.

What the producers were not prepared for was that they were going to have to fire Glenn Quinn so quickly into the series, and thus do the whole CordyVision thing that much faster.

[kel-reiley.livejournal.com]

oh? i wasn't "in fandom" then, and didn't really follow anything other than watching the show on a weekly basis, so i only have info i gathered later, but i didn't think his problems really came to a head until later

[thatwordgrrl.livejournal.com]

He was fired because of the drug addiction.

[kel-reiley.livejournal.com]

and i thought that, too, when i read about it later
but then i read that that wasn't the case and his character was already written to die then (tho, the places i read it were all from ppl who had no ties to the production, so it was all speculation anyway)
but yeah... it's sad :(

[ithinkitisayit.livejournal.com]

Ditto. I read he was always scheduled to die. But I think betnoir is probably right about him dying so early. I didn't really get a chance to get attached to Doyle, and actually found him rather obnoxious the first time around. When I watched S1 again, I got a bit more fond of him. But all the same? I still prefer Wesley. There's more funnier story lines with Wesley.

[kel-reiley.livejournal.com]

i really loved doyle, but then i really liked the actor, too
agree that wesley had much funnier story, and his character arc is one of my faves

[thatwordgrrl.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I suspect his death had to be hastily written when the producers realized Quinn was not going to work out (It just had that "CRAP! We gotta find some way to get rid of this character" feel to it). And the whole "we planned it, just not this fast" may have been part of a deal they struck with Quinn and his people to help him save face.

For almost a year after Quinn left the show, there were local LA radio PSA anti-drug spots he was doing, so I suspect that may have been part of some sort of court order thing.

Note that I'm not faulting the producers. Quinn was clearly a liability and needed to be cut loose, from their perspective. Just that the stories they told about why might not be completely true.

[sevendayloan.livejournal.com]

I love reading your Buffy/Angel updates, they crack me up. So true on all accounts.

As for Maggie Walsh (the psych prof), she actually freaks me out hardcore because I had a biology teacher who was exactly. like. her. Seriously, she looks so much like Professor Walsh that a classmate of mine actually asked if our teacher used to be an actress. Not to mention her mannerisms, which are exactly the same! I still can't get over it.

[ekatarina.livejournal.com]

I think it's just so right that "Hush" garnered an Emmy nomination for writing.

Ekatarina, who is also enjoying your updates and responses

[thatwordgrrl.livejournal.com]

I now have the PERFECT EXCUSE to pull out this icon!

Wesley, over the course of the series, is the character who I think grows the most. And in his own way ends up sacrificing the most. Right now, it's hard to see, but hang in there.

While I cannot YET burble about how The Body is so so much better than any other Buffy episode, Hush does come in at second. It is Whedon at his creepy best.

[amand-r.livejournal.com]

The silent "presentation" Giles gives in the lecture hall in Hush was the best lesson in writing action and humor without dialogue that I ever got.

[missdeanna.livejournal.com]

That is one of my favorite scenes, period.

[rm.livejournal.com]

I can't believe I forgot to mention how TOTALLY awesome that was. Someone had a lot of fun drawing those.

[lilacsigil.livejournal.com]

On the other hand, I feel like it does keep us at a distance

I find the exact opposite - because the characters are grieving, I feel drawn into the loss rather than thrown out on my own. The last part of Serenity is absolutely the hardest to watch for me, because I care about both the character who is gone AND those who are left behind. Torchwood deaths hurt me a lot less (yes, even Toshiko) because they were just gone and forgotten.

"Hush" worked the same way for me - it was a bloody fantastic standalone episode, which is why it probably got the attention it did, but it wasn't necessarily as connected to the main arcs of the show as other episodes.

[missdeanna.livejournal.com]

Hmmm...interesting point. I think I might agree. The problem for me is that there comes a point where I just disconnect. I can no longer put in any emotional investment. That's never happened to me with Whedonverse deaths. I was prepared to go there if I had to at the end of Dollhouse, but it never got to that point. I've always been able to accept the deaths as parts of the character arcs and overall plots, which is important to me.

[heron61.livejournal.com]

Hush is an absolute gem - IMHO one of the four best Buffy eps (along with 4-22, 5-16, and 6-7). I hadn't considered the analogies between Ethan and John Hart, but they are indeed similar, except that Ethan is indeed older and far more pathetic.

[fmanalyst.livejournal.com]

But isn't that what happens to aging bad boys? That they lose their danger and just become pathetic?

[laurashapiro.livejournal.com]

Did you catch the extreme Ethan/Giles slash in the bar?

ETHAN: You know you're really quite attractive.

Cut to Giles, looking bemused

I love that whole scene.

[rm.livejournal.com]

But Ethan's saying that to the waitress he's chatting up.

[laurashapiro.livejournal.com]

On one level, sure. But the way the scene is cut, it looks like he's saying it to Giles.

I'm not saying their relationship is canon (though I think based on what we learn in The Dark Age, it could be argued). I'm saying it's strongly subtextually implied -- slashy, in the original sense of the word.

Obviously it doesn't compare to an onscreen relationship like Jack/Ianto, but still.

[rm.livejournal.com]

Yeah, no I know, and I know the writer or the show-runner or something has said they have past sexual history. And I've very much been viewing Ethan and Giles' ex, oddly, until that scene, where the chemistry between them felt different in the other interactions and Giles was very much doing the "actually, I've always hated you" thing.

Also, agree with the way it's cut. I was confused for a moment and then confused again when I realized he was talking to the waitress.

[laurashapiro.livejournal.com]

I think Ethan is very definitely Giles' ex, yeah. I think the point of the ep is Giles' general frustration with his life, so it makes sense he'd be grumpy at everybody, but you're right, their chemistry is very different here. Though they do bond when things get boozy. (:

[dr-is-in.livejournal.com]

I can't wait for you to get to the musical Buffy ep, just to see your reaction to it. I am loving reading your summaries. It's making me want to watch Buffy from the beginning.

And Wesley goes through quite a bit of growth on Angel. I think you'll really enjoy it.

[elisi]

Angel/Cordelia/Wesley is my new OT3.
That last scene, with the three of them having breakfast, is one of my favourite moments ever. ::hearts them all::

On one hand, we can argue that that's both good, and responsible, TV. On the other hand, I feel like it does keep us at a distance. Whedon deaths are never deaths that happen to us, because we watch the aftermath for those who get left behind. Not us.
I shall have to ponder this.

It's really a TERRIBLE episode
Amen. Although it does some good things, mostly with Spike. That is, it puts him in a Hawaiian shirt, lets him attempt suicide and then gives him back his bite, all leading to the ending: "Come on! Vampires! Grrr! Nasty! Let’s annihilate them. For justice - and for - the safety of puppies – and Christmas, right? Let’s *fight* that evil! Let’s *kill* something! Oh, come *on*!”

I also love Spike leaning against walls and smoking cigarettes and pouting like he's a rent-boy.
LOL! You are not alone...

When demon!Giles chased her, I literally exclaimed "go paunchy mild-aged demon Giles!"
Giles as a demon is hysterical. And your observations re Ethan are making me laugh.

I love these posts! :)

[i-amthecosmos.livejournal.com]

When I was at D*Con last year, I wrapped up a nearly whole days worth of science and skeptic panels with a visit to the Wheldonverse room so they could count down the top ten Big Bads in every series.

The Gentlemen from "Hush" were I believe the only one-season big-bad to make the list. They were just that creepy.

[paulshandy.livejournal.com]

Wesley's arc is really weird, in ways I can't explain without spoilers, but talk about the hard road to heroism. It's a little heretical for me to say this, but I'd rather rewatch Angel seasons 2-5 than Buffy 1-5 (assuming I ever have both the time and the money at the same time), because once "Angel" finds its feet it feels more like one very long, bumpy set of character arcs, and the stories are really just excuses for character development. That's the sort of thing that raises a TV show from good to great, IMO.

[ithinkitisayit.livejournal.com]

Nods. I can see this.

I haven't watched a lot of Buffy seasons 1-5 to say, but it seems to me that Buffy finally got her own developing character arc come Season 6. I think she really grew as a character in that season. Before that, in the episodes I've seen, she's pretty much unchanged.

[paulshandy.livejournal.com]

Ah, but you'd be surprised how many of her fans considered that character growth to be character violation. They didn't really want her character to change; they liked old Buffy.

Umberto Eco wrote about this, saying that serial characters are stuck in a trap. If they grow too much, readers don't like them. If they don't grow at all, they're boring.

[rani23.livejournal.com]

I loved that you compared Spike to a rentboy. So perfect. :)

[redeem147.livejournal.com]

Every time I re-watch Hush and the Gentleman glides by Olivia's window I jump. Every single time.

[mobobocita.livejournal.com]

Whedon deaths are never deaths that happen to us, because we watch the aftermath for those who get left behind.

I think that was the key to his early success, so many teens could witness deaths and how Whedon perceives people *should* respond, it's an education that we dearly lack in.

I've said it before, I can survive character death with just a flinch but give me a cast reaction to it? I'm in tears.

[1-mad-squirrel.livejournal.com]

I love reading you going through these episodes for the first time.

[fmanalyst.livejournal.com]

I love Hush, not just for the quality of the writing as a stand-alone episode, but how it develops the overall story-arc of the season. It's just a perfect example of its kind in terms of narrative structure.

[realtsunamigirl.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure if you actually have the DVDs on hand or are pulling them off of the internet, but if you can get them listening to Joss's commentaries is always worthwhile and no more so than on "Hush". He goes into an amazing amount of detail about motivation, both the characters and his own for writing what he does and how. He also comments on things that most commentaries seem to feel are too "technical" or boring and has a phenomenal amount of respect for everyone who worked on the shows. If you're a Joss junkie like me, you know the names of the DP, costume designer, production designer and every writer or director. If you're Joss, you also remember all of the stunt crew, camera operators, day players and probably the PA who brought you your coffee on the morning in question.

Actually any of the commentaries are worth listening to, because that level of appreciation and respect filtered down through everyone who worked on the show. It is the only place I have ever heard actors comment with real sincerity and admiration on the crew they worked with. Not just the "we have a great crew, but now let's talk some more about me", but "yeah, this is my big scene, whatever, just look at the amazing lighting on this, you would not believe how fast Ray got that set up. Ooh! and check out that chair, Carey found it himself at a garage sale. He is such a genius, you would not believe how detailed our sets out. Whenever I was having trouble with a scene I'd just go down and sit on the set and it got me in the space every time. Check out that shirt..."

And I'm babbling again...Joss Whedon is the only person associated with film or TV that I wish I could sit down and have dinner with based on his work in Hollywood. There are others that I think would make dandy dinner conversationalists, but he's the only one I want to talk shop with.

[rm.livejournal.com]

We have the actual DVDs. I'll definitely go back to the commentary for certain episodes for my Bristol paper, but have no idea if beyond that what I'll get to.

[supremegoddess1.livejournal.com]

I'm really enjoying reading your thoughts on these episodes; I've seen both series front to back (and sometimes multiple times) and I <3 them so much. It's nice to see that you're enjoying it.