"Once More With Feeling"

[rm]

So, let me make sure I'm clear about this: the Scoobies were able to defeat evil because the demon didn't want to bang Xander?

Right, now that we've gotten that out of the way --

You know, I've heard about this episode for years what with the whole sing-along thing, and you know, that sort of gave me a false impression of this thing, because when I hear sing-along, I think happy! funny! Rocky Horror! Instead we got depressing, weird and often atonal. HOW GREAT IS THIS SHIT?

I certainly didn't think it would be the most important part of multiple narratives (Tara/Willow, Buffy's resurrection, Giles and Buffy, Spike/Buffy and possibly Anya/Xander), and yet!

Seriously, why do you people do sing-alongs of this? It's so not designed for that, well, with the exception of the "We will walk through the fire" song which is awesome, and it must have been SO AMAZING to be in fandom at that moment. I mean, Torchwood is the only experience I've ever had of being in TV fandom as the show was airing and that's been... well, the way it's been, although I wouldn't trade going through the Ianto thing as it happened for anything. But this! I can't imagine getting to burn up the Internet with your friends after this episode and see each other at school or work the next day and bursting into one of those songs! I'm so jealous of you all. What a remarkable thing!

*Random Baz Luhrmann-related noise* (it's late, I'll be thinky tomorrow) and wow, so many references to so many classic (and not so classic) musicals -- especially in the dance. And really great work with the all the random facial expressions and random stage business to create the right vibe of the whole thing. Wow wow wow. Also, this TOTALLY made me want to watch one of my favorite inexplicable movie musicals -- Absolute Beginners.

Also, Spike/Buffy totally. TOTALLY. Although, to be frank, I think I like it uneasy and impossible more than anything.

Also, how glad am I that the info about Buffy not having been in Hell is finally out there? Because that matters. Also, a part of me wants to point at this plotline and jump up and down when people are all "bring Ianto back."

Anyway! People! No one told me this episode MATTERED.

Comments

[lefaym.livejournal.com]

Also, a part of me wants to point at this plotline and jump up and down when people are all "bring Ianto back."

I think that whether or not that will resonate with people will depend very much on whether or not an individual fan felt that Ianto's death was "right" for his character. I'll hazard a guess that most people who want Ianto back did not feel that the death he got in CoE was right for his character.

[rm.livejournal.com]

I guess I'm not looking at whether the death was "right" or not. I mean, I don't think most of us get deaths that are right for us. They just happen,even if they are expected, far from now and graceful.

I'm more like -- and here's me mixing the metaphors of the shows badly -- just because his death was something some people found narratively unsatisfying doesn't mean he's in a hell dimension and maybe he's not worried about whether he and Jack are a couple now, or what his father would think of him, or whether anyone, including Lisa, will ever really forgive him for what happened to Lisa now. And so, maybe, it would be shitty to bring him back from that.

Resurrection on Torchwood is rarely king, and since we already have canon (audiobook) where Ianto does go into hell to rescue Jackm to me I just fel like maybe he should be allowed his long-deserved rest even if people don't like how he fucking got there.

If you want to, conversely, argue that Torchwood only has hell dimensions (leaving us with the "Random Shoes" problem) or only has hell dimensions for Torchwood operatives (something I've argued as a possibility, so sure), then I can see the argument for trying to get Ianto back and trying not to fuck it up this time (i.e., all glove-related incidents). But I think it wouldn't be good.

Of course, this is almost an entirely bizarre post from me since the Whoniverse is theoretically athiestic. You know, giant horned demons in pits and complicated half-revealed death mythology aside.

[lefaym.livejournal.com]

I guess it's that for me, Buffy's arc in S6 is very much about the show acknowledging that her death in S5 was "right" for her, and now that she's back in the living world, she has an existence that isn't necessarily governed by fate and purpose in the way that it was earlier, and that's not really something that applies to Ianto's arc, at least not in a mystical sense.

Ultimately, though, I don't think that Buffy's S6 arc is something that would change people's minds on whether or not Ianto should come back. While it's possible to argue that one doesn't want him back because it would be painful for him as a character, it's also possible to argue that Buffy S6 demonstrates that it's possible to bring a character back from the dead and do it REALLY WELL. I mean, if Ianto did get ressurected and it was revealed that he was in a Heaven-like place, that would actually have an awful lot of potential to fuck with Jack's perception of his place in the universe, and could make for some really interesting character development for both of them. Not saying I think that should happen (honestly, I'm feeling more and more neutral all the time on the issue of whether or not Ianto should come back), but it'd be easy to use this Buffy arc to argue that it could be done very effectively (and Torchwood has already taken so much from Buffy and Angel anyway...).

[kel-reiley.livejournal.com]

...is it wrong that now i REALLY want someone to write that? where before i was all 'resurrection in torchwood is NEVER good for all involved', i now really want to see this

[rm.livejournal.com]

To be frank, I'm tempted, as lefaym has offered what I consider the first good argument for a dark, dramatic narrative involving a resurrected Ianto that isn't involve him being evil, rendered powerless or the result being EVEN DARKER than CoE.

[kel-reiley.livejournal.com]

yes, someone please please write this!

[sevendayloan.livejournal.com]

I'd certainly love to read it. :)

[eandh99.livejournal.com]

It just struck me - we already have one example of a completely consequence-free return from death in TW, on top of the weirdly off-key happy afterlife in Random Shoes, and one which I don't think has ever provoked much discussion. Rhys, end of series 1.

[rm.livejournal.com]

I don't personally consider Rhys to have actually died and been resurrected. I consider Rhys to have been killed in a time-splinter AU that is later undone. So Rhys, as we see him on the show, never died. Some people use a similar theory as a possible CoE solution -- the bomb in Jack's stomach splintered time due to its proximity to the Rift, meaning Ianto is alive and the Jack we've been watching (and therefore we the viewers) is in a splinter universe where he's dead.

[eandh99.livejournal.com]

That's an interesting way to wiggle out from under. I do think blowing up the Hub and destroying the rift manipulator should have had some consequences, and AU is the kindest way of describing what RTD did to TW I can think of. Are you following the current DW series? Don't want to say more for spoilers.

[rm.livejournal.com]

I haven't had time beyond two episodes, but it's sitting on its harddrive waiting for me.

[eandh99.livejournal.com]

Then I'll hush up for now.

[bare-bear.livejournal.com]

we already have canon (audiobook) where Ianto does go into hell to rescue Jack

I never did listen to all the audio books. Which one was this?

[rm.livejournal.com]

The Sin Eaters.

[bare-bear.livejournal.com]

Oh cripes, I even have that one. *facepalm* Guess I know what I'm listening to on the bus tonight. :) Thanks.