PSA: rules of the road

[rm]

Hey. Can we talk about guns for a second?

Okay.

Guns, more or less, are for killing shit. Even when you're shooting targets for sport, that's a training activity related shooting accurately in case you actually want to kill shit.

And you know what? That's okay. Maybe you hunt. Maybe you're in law enforcement. Maybe you're military. Maybe you're learning to use a gun for self-defense. Maybe you just really enjoy target shooting or are a competitive sport shooter and it is, for you, an abstract exercise. Maybe you're trying to become familiar with guns so you can make your own decision about them.

All that stuff can be debated. Whether or not hunting is okay. Whether or not police should have guns. Whether or not we'll always have war. Whether or not guns are an effective means of self-defense.

But this post isn't about that.

This also isn't about gun control (which, btw, isn't about "Yes" or "No" but a range of legal issues surrounding gun ownership, use and sale).

This is about, CAN WE ALL JUST AGREE THAT GUNS ARE FOR SHOOTING THINGS?

And that generally, shooting things means harming/destroying them in some way?

Now, sure, guns don't kill people, people kill people. But a gun's purpose is, as reviewed previously, essentially for killing.

Of course, other things can kill people too and even be repurposed as weapons -- like cars and airplanes. But neither of those things are explicitly designed to be weapons or lack other uses. Guns, on the other hand, pretty much are just for shooting shit.

So here are a bunch of things that are not equivalent to guns, gun ranges, or gun instruction:

airplanes
flight schools
cars
driving school
mosques
Islamic cultural centers

To say otherwise is disingenuous and illogical, and no, "I'm just playing devil's advocate" is not an excuse to be offensive about this.

I have Christians, Jews, Muslims, Pagans, Hindus, Buddhists, and atheists reading and participating in this journal. Probably a whole bunch of other belief systems too. There are folks from all over the world, all ages, all races, playing along here.

So, if someone says to you "that statement is racist," they are not calling you a racist. They are saying you said something they feel is racist. Please debate with this in mind. Also, please refrain from calling people racists or what-have-you unless you are pointing out a systematic pattern of behavior.

Please also keep in mind that concepts and terms that may not be loaded where you live, may be deeply loaded where someone else lives. Sometimes people can say really offensive shit and not only have meant no harm by it, but really, have no idea it could cause harm elsewhere (i.e., acceptable uses of "Asian" and "Oriental" are different in the US vs. the UK and elsewhere and mean different things in various places; "English-only" as a policy in a multi-national corporation is different than "English-only" as a policy in a school district where 80% of the kids are recent immigrants; etc).

Also, I would appreciate it a lot if we could try to play by the rules of the subway. If someone says you've said something hurtful to them and you don't get it after going three rounds over it? Just fucking apologize and move on.

Because honestly? Sure, some people like to make a career out of taking shit personally. But most of the time if someone speaks up to go "wow, this made me really uncomfortable" it's because they're really uncomfortable, not because they want attention. Chances are they want anything but.

So if you wanted them to feel that way? Fine, own it. If you don't give a shit if they feel that way? Fine, own that. If you don't get it? Own that.

But don't tell them how to feel or that they feel too much. And if you feel those emotions are coming from biases, then suggest they examine them, but you can't tell people how to feel, mainly 'cause it doesn't work.

Now, of course, I'm no expert in any of these things. I fight and argue on the Internet where PEOPLE ARE WRONG all the damn time. And I've absolutely, and rightly, been called on for saying racist and ableist shit (I hope it's the sort of thing I keep learning from), and I've been incensed by other people's emotions and engaged in ad hominem attacks and been called on shit that I totally haven't gotten, maybe right or maybe wrongly.

But can we try? Because I try. I'd like it if you fucking tried.

I won't be policing the journal for this shit. I don't have the time, and I'm not interested in being a cop. When I ban people, which is rarely, it's because I've lost my patience and they've made it abundantly clear they do not view me as a human being. So bans: unlikely and at random. Live in fear, or, more rationally, don't worry about it; you're probably safe.

But try not to be assholes, okay?

And a mosque is not a gun is not a car.

Thank you.

Comments

[tacky-tramp.livejournal.com]

Yes, I got that. I am still amused. "My [insert minority here] friends vouch for me" is always worth a chuckle.

[delchi.livejournal.com]

True enough. I just thought that considering the subject at hand I woudl be specific. Really most any of my friends would " vouch " that I am not anti-Islamic.

I could ask them all to be sure. It might take a while.

[delchi.livejournal.com]

Ps : cockeyed bullshit like this is why many people think that it's pointless to apologize and admit they made a mistake. Please feel free to go die quietly in a fire.

( Is that more what you were expecting me to say? I do aim to please )

[tacky-tramp.livejournal.com]

No, I was expecting you to continue making this All About delchi's Deep and Abiding Tolerance for Muslims. Which you did. A+!

[delchi.livejournal.com]

Don't get me wrong, I know there is no winning with the likes of you. For a challenge, can I go back and take that line out, and see what you pick on next? How about I make the classic move of telling you to talk to my friends ( all of them, not just the specific ones ) and having them vouch for me in a desperate attempt to gain your acceptance and understand, without which my life would be incomplete? Shall I open up new venues for you to insult and degrade me? After all, that's what it's all about isn't it. A person makes a mistake, admits it, and then has their head handed to them with a side order of ridicule and snark. That is how you folks play the game, no?

[tacky-tramp.livejournal.com]

Gosh, my mistake, I missed where you said "I'm sorry for saying that the mosque shouldn't be built near the WTC; it is wrong to appease racists." I saw you saying "I want to appease racists but still get a Tolerance Cookie. Please give me my Tolerance Cookie." I must have misread your comment.

[delchi.livejournal.com]

You misread far more than that. You missed the part where I said I understood why people feel it's wrong, even if I don't agree with their reasoning. You also missed the part where I said that I thought that building it , and getting the message/education across was more important than debating / fighting for the specific location.

you also missed the part about how it's my opinion. Instead of accepting that there might be differing opinions, you just attack anything that does not fit your worldview. If this is what you call tolerance, then I think we both don't deserve cookies.

[tacky-tramp.livejournal.com]

You know, I should have seen "it's my opinion" coming. I really should have. And yet I was still shocked that anyone -- particularly someone who regularly reads rm's journal -- would honestly act like "it's my opinion" is any kind of "defense" for saying stupid racist shit.

I am under no obligation to "agree to disagree" about racism. Or sexism. Or homophobia. And so on. I am not ~intolerant~ because I snarked on the racist shit you said. Snarking you? Is NOTHING LIKE OPPRESSION. Get a fucking grip.

[delchi.livejournal.com]

That's the funny part. See I said that I understood the origins of other peoples racism. I understood and saw where their racism came from. Never said I agreed with it. It took someone like you to make that leap for me. Mostly when I said I didn't necessarily agree with it, but I understood where it came from.

I've been oppressed by people like you for ages. This is nothing new. See everyone is entitled to your opinion, and your decision is final as to what my intentions were. All I can possibly do is humble myself before you and ask you how not to be a racist. Your reply is that I can't , I can't ever undo what has been done, and I must pay for it forever. There is no forgiveness. I have been branded a racist for daring to try to understand what motivates real racists. You get the McCarthy medal for this one. Now that you have flamed and shamed me now what will you do? What adventure lays ahead? What lays ahead for the next total stranger you know nothing about that you will brand and condemn? *cue dramatic music*

[sunhawk.livejournal.com]

oppressed

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

Holy crap dude, she gave you VERY CLEAR INSTRUCTIONS (http://rm.livejournal.com/1905740.html?thread=21606476#t21606476) how to NOT be racist and you've ignored it in favour of clinging to your racist ideas. Either let the ideas go or keep them and people will probably think you are racist, you choose! Can't have it both ways, cupcake!

Maybe you'll learn someday that as a white dude, discussions about racism are NOT ABOUT YOU and are about the people they hurt! You have been acting increasingly ridiculous in this thread, just stop it.

[delchi.livejournal.com]

Also , this has been a bit about religion, not race. A religion may contain people of many different races. the argument about how I'm a racist is in another thread. Somewhere near the one where I'm called an anti-Semite. I'm such a horrible person I have a hard time keeping track of all the horrible nasty things I am. It's amazing that anyone talks to me at all other than to ridicule me. I'm going to go have drinks and catch a movie with Mel Gibson now. He may be an asshole, but at least he doesn't sit in judgment of me without knowing a damn thing about me. Then again, I am the demon evil white male hater of all things good and proper. He probably likes that about me. Funny how the people who preach tolerance, acceptance and understanding have little to share.

I guess that's something I'll have to figure out later. Anywho , back to the me bashing, please. It's always refreshing to be abuses, chastised and have my person torn to shreds by people demanding that abusing and degrading people is wrong.

... wait.. what?

[delchi.livejournal.com]

PS : I didn't mean to literally DIAF, it's just that you were anger trolling me and that's usually the kind of reaction people are looking for when they are anger trolling. I don't normally tell people to DIAF, but you made me angry enough to let one slip through the goalposts. It takes quite a bit to get me to loose my cool like that. As you said " A+ ".

[pantryslut.livejournal.com]

Or an eyeroll.

[rm.livejournal.com]

Am I going to have to make an additional PSA that if anyone ever uses me as their queer friend or their Jewish friend or their [whatever] friend in an argument, even if I agree with their point, that I'm going to have to be royally pissed?

[pantryslut.livejournal.com]

We're so handy that way. Like a Swiss army knife!

[delchi.livejournal.com]

So there is no proper way of saying " Ask anyone who knows me, I'm not a racist " without being... racist?

The rules are getting confusing. This reminds me of a track by Celestial Navigations, called " The Janitor " which is a comical look at a fictional janitor who works for "God" , cleaning things up lie messy nebulae and stardust. Anyway he gets tasked with making up a game for humans to play , and he comes up with this game in which there was a list of impossible tasks to complete like being a nature loving eco friendly industrialist, and so on. In the end he gives up and says that humans should just be nice to each other. He quips that It's a simple game but no one seems to get it right.

Geoffrey Lewis does most of the voice acting.

[pantryslut.livejournal.com]

I am posting this in all sincerity. If you haven't already:

1. Go learn about the concept of aversive racism.

2. Go learn about the use of the phrase "my black friend."

3. Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBJXtTIbDTo

4. Meditate on these things for a while. In silence.

5. Try to let go of the notion that this is calling you out as being a racist and using that as an excuse to dismiss your views. Dude. Seriously. If we were doing that, we all wouldn't still be talking to you. We wouldn't be trying. We wouldn't be making PSA posts or replying to your comments.

6. The answer to your first question is "no."There really isn't any way to ask your friends to vouch for your character like this without coming off as self-centered at best, because really, this conversation? Isn't about you. Not really. It's about a pattern of behavior that you are engaged in, but you're hardly the first or last.

It also prompts a follow-up question: why are you so concerned with conveying I'm Not A Racist! to people on the Internet? For a possible answer, btw, go back to step #1.

[delchi.livejournal.com]

Riddle me this : If I was an anti-Semite, Anti Islam, Racist as I've been called, woudl I have any Islamic friends? No , I would not. They would see me as hating them , and they would not be my friends. Under normal ( read not being attacked ) circumstances I do not refer to them as "My Islamic friends" but in the current context I thought it would be useful to point out that I have friends who practice Islam, and we get along rather well. Now this is different from the PSA video, and it is different from the use of " my black friend " , because I'm only outlining their unique identity as to show a point : I am not what I am being made out to be. I don't say " This is my Islamic friend" in normal conversation any more than I say " This is my transvestite friend" or " this is my Jewish friend ". If I was an anti-semite I would not have Jewish friends. If I was prejudice against people of color , I would not have black friends. Since I have these, it would stand to reason that the labels don't stick.

It's not bloody likely I'm going to just suddenly accept that this is not a calling out, because for the most part that is exactly what is being done. If I say I'm not a racist and people can simply say ' yes you are ' and I am , then I reserve the right to say that this is a calling out, and I'm magically right. I'm being called out for being a racist for trying to understand what the motivations and reasons behind racist activity. The mistake is in thinking I agree with them.

You people have pinned me back against the wall with accusations and insults, and you can't expect much out of a person in that situation.


Why do I care - because people I care about are on this roller coaster of me-hate, and I do not want them to be misguided into thinking ' gee maybe he really IS a racist'.

I allow people on LJ to vouch for the character of others when I hold them in question. They are my friends and I trust and value their judgment and experience where mine is lacking. Maybe that's my bad. Maybe not.

I've been on the receiving end of prejudice and abuse, bias and cultural rejection for most of my life. I know it's wrong. I know it's bad. Now before you start down the path of " Oh you are making it all about you " just try to understand that for a minute. The major difference is that there are no parades for people like me, there are no special interest groups, or protective laws. I have nothing. Now I have even less. Any act of self defense is used to further condemn me. Yay McCarthyisim.

You've snarked at me, I've been called racist, xenophobe, Islam-hating and a host of other things that are not true. when I try to defend myself I'm just told that I'm digging the hole deeper.

I'm not going to admit to being something I'm not. I admitted I used the wrong words and presented my idea poorly, and apologized for it. That was thrown back in my face. You have hurt me, embarrassed me, shamed me, and NOW you take the kinder road and expect me to just roll over and play complacent 'oh I guess I'm a bad man after all' role?

All of you have shamed me into silence. You must understand that by now. the only opinions of yours that I said were wrong were the ones you have formed about me. In contrast any opinion I put out is slapped down as being wrong, for no greater reason than it goes against your opinion.

Does that sound right?

Aside, please don't tell me that I should not feel that way. I do. yo may be able to dictate how I think , and what I believe in , but I know with absolute certainty how I feel. You can't change that.

[pantryslut.livejournal.com]

Gave it my best shot. Thanks for not listening. Have a nice life.

[tacky-tramp.livejournal.com]

There's really no point, but god bless you for trying.

[delchi.livejournal.com]

Actually, I did listen, or read as it was. The problem is you refuse to accept anything from me outside of absolute admission that you are completely right in your assessment of me. You will have a difficult time convincing people that they are something that they are not. The best I can offer is that you take your own advice in so far as reading what I am saying with an open mind, and not with the predestined conclusion that I am a racist, *-phobe, and so on.

I did follow what you advised, even with the mind clearing prior to watching things. It's just that you have me wrong. If I were to hazard a guess I'd say that you were not listening to me, based on 'having seen this before' and pigeonholing me into a place where I fit.

I am not a racist, averse or otherwise.
I am not an anti-Semite.
I am not anti Islam

Nothing you can say or do can change that, nor force me into stating that I am.

[pantryslut.livejournal.com]

Your belief that's what I'm after is...charming in its misplaced fervor.

Go away.

[sunhawk.livejournal.com]

Don't want to be seen as racist? Then don't say racist things, don't support racist rhetoric, don't act as apologist for racists and don't explain racist mindsets to us, because we are all pretty well-versed in what racist people think and why! It's that simple.

[marcmagus]

I hope you won't mind if I interject briefly:

Riddle me this : If I was an anti-Semite, Anti Islam, Racist as I've been called, woudl I have any Islamic friends? No , I would not.

I'm Jewish. I have friends who have made anti-Semitic statements, some even in my hearing. A few even in the strictly anti-Jewish sense. They're still my friends, and in many cases, if I were for some reason asked I would probably say that no, they aren't anti-Semites.

In general, people have been calling your statements anti-Semitic, Islamophobic, or racist. I have not observed anybody calling you any of those things. That distinction really is relevant.

I encourage you to attempt to go back with a clear mind and reread rm's response to you at the beginning of this thread, where she specifically attached all those -ists to a sentence about your statements and their effects, and then your reply to that, where you responded that you (rather than what you said or the effect of it) are not personally anti-Islamic.

[delchi.livejournal.com]

I trust my friends to tell me if I'm being culturally / racially insensitive. They have done so, but always in an appropriate but firm way. No snarking, no personal insults, no degrading - like " Hey man, that's not right ". As you might guess from the antics here, I have very few friends, but I trust the ones I have explicitly - and I believe that they would call me out if I was a racist/*-phobe/etc.

My statements, which I have clearly said multiple times that I do not agree with, were part of understanding why some people oppose the location. I do not agree with reasons that are racist/phobic/hate based, and I also clearly said that in my opinion it's a signal to noise ratio issue. Now I also said I don't expect nor demand people to agree with me. In return for this I have been called damn near every bad name under the sun, told that I am a racist , and any attempt to defend that has been twisted into further proof. This is a no win situation, and like the last round - it was shown that people give up when they realize you can't force someone to admit they are something that they are not.

I don't expect you to understand the depth of hurt that is involved when someone who knows better accuses me of being an anti-Semite. You are not me, and no one but I really has a grip on how that cuts.

I don't mind if you interject. Historically speaking you have always been respectful and yet firm on your stance. In contrast to the snarking , name calling and 'oh no you ARE a racist' that is much appreciated.

In conclusion, I made many statements that I have derived as being from the point of view of many people, a point of view that I do not agree with , nor support , but understand. I also feel that misdirected religion is as dangerous as a loaded gun in the sense that it can cause destruction and death at the command of one person. Finally I stated that my opinion is that I disagree with the location of the Mosque, based on signal to noise ratio and effectiveness in completing it's goal of cultural (re)education. This was not based on bias, hate, or any phobia. It was stated that in fact it IS based on these things, which is simply incorrect.

There is a limit to the abuse I will take, especially in this forum which has historically lead to many pieces of hate mail and snark directed towards me. I slipped and started matching snark for snark, which was a mistake on my part, but I'm human and I will make mistakes now and then. It just happens that this round two things happened - one of the attacks I took personally and therefore it hit a nerve, and I had an apology thrown in my face. I don't see any reason to continue down this path. People have demonized me , and there is apparently no changing their mind.