sundries (and long TW stopwatch theory)

[rm]

- Patty's mom is in town. Tonight we are going to see The Fantasticks. Tomorrow she leaves for Ohio, to return when I get back from Chicago. We'll also buy our Atlanta tickets tonight.

- Wow, three killer FSTs on my friends list this morning. rox0r.

- Hey, Nick Cave is playing a gig here on my birthday. There's half a plan.

- As per usual, you are owed a long fencing post. Next 24 hours.

- Also, if you've friended me in the last week or so, I'm doing maintenance in the next 24 hours or so, which means getting all those adds sorted in. So hello and welcome, almost.

- Would it be rude to make a list of songs/artists I really wish people would stop making fanvids to? Because seriously, the shitty love theme from your prom does not, actually, say Jack/Ianto all over.

- So I've been rewatching season 1 of Torchwood. It's a much better/shocking/different season after you've seen season 2. Either the writers are brilliant or completely out of their goddamn minds (and sloppy to boot). Anyway, I thought They Keep Killing Suzie was shocking the first time. It's even more shocking once you've gotten through the end of season 2. It also makes a shitload more sense.

Point 1: Jesus, most disturbing use of Gorecki. I'd forgotten that that's where that song (on my Torchwood playlist on my iPod) was used in the series. And at first it's all Jack being moony about Gwen, and I'm just like "oh whatever!" but it reads as creepy. Is it Jack being into her or does Gwen have a role in the greater machinations of the universe? But then of course it cuts to that business with him and Ianto in the morgue.

Point 2: Okay, I think I finally know what's going on with the stopwatch thing, or at least have a read on that interaction that makes sense with both season 1 and season 2 and Lisa. I think they were screwing before the Lisa thing happened. Then I think at some point after it Jack came on to Ianto out of a desire for angry, comfort or let's-be-friends-again sex (I'm guessing not angry just from the tone of this thing) and Ianto turned him down, probably in that cold Ianto Feels No Pain But Is a Lying Liar Who Lies bullshit way that's so infuriating. And somewhere in there, or more probably, back when they were screwing, at some point Jack had made some random crack about the stopwatch -- just one of the endless dumb remarks that has come out of his mouth, and then he forgot all about it. Ianto, of course, remembers everything (canonical Mary Sue trait!) and so awkwardly uses the reference to try to approach Jack with a distraction when Jack's in pain because OMG, hi, can Jack have a relationship with anyone that isn't a codependent mess? But Jack, of course, having forgotten the initial remark, is just confused. On the other hand, he gets to fuck the cute office boy again, score.

Point 3: The above said, there's a profound wariness and menace in this moment, actually, and not, I don't think, just because they are standing over Suzie's body. I generally roll my eyes at the idea that Ianto is going to turn evil (thanks, GDL) or that he's really a Time Lord (some awesome fic to that effect aside), but watching this again, combined with the sketchy Ianto backstory from Fragments and I am kinda left thinking there is some big, fucked up reveal coming about him. Which is pretty interesting when you consider the things we've been told about the next season of Torchwood -- it's the most awful, agonizing situation they've dealt with yet; it involves tons of Ianto backstory (we've heard this from JB, GDL and the writers now); it may involve Jack backstory; the writers who have made any noise on the 'shipping wars are very pro Jack/Ianto. Does that feel like a recipe for doom or what? That said, I really, really like Ianto as just a scary, bright, damaged, ordinary mortal human guy, and really hope the show doesn't fuck that shit up.

Comments

[tommx.livejournal.com]

My assumption about the stop watch initially was that it was a game they'd play with each other to see who could delay orgasm faster during oral sex. Maybe that's just me.

I totally missed the Gorecki. Now I gotta go back and see that episode. That and I have a huge thing for Indira Varma.

[rm.livejournal.com]

See, that was my initial thught about the stopwatch. And I'm sure that's what Jack's random reference to it was that I'm speculating on for backstory, but that whole dialogue just has an air of mistrust and menance and surprise to it that's REALLY strange. Hence my convolutions.

Indira Varma is hot. Although I can't figure out what they were doing with her on this show. Because Costello? Really? And then her dad is so clearly Indian. What?

[iterum.livejournal.com]

I'm only partway through season 1 and I was wondering whether the stopwatch would ever make any more sense.

Never occurred to me to make a connection to the Time Lord thing, probably for good reason. But maybe he'll turn out to be Romana.

[rm.livejournal.com]

It won't make more explicit sense, per se, but there is an episode at the end of season 2 that at least gives you a way to find some continuity for the Jack/Ianto story (because when I first watched season 1, I was just like "WHAT? You killed my girlfriend, let's fuck, WHAT?" -- which I think I actually shouted at the TV).

[redstapler.livejournal.com]

Is it Jack being into her or does Gwen have a role in the greater machinations of the universe?

I'm unsure exactly how you mean that question, but...

She *is* descended from the same bloodline as the Gwyneth (or whatever her name was) who opened the Rift in the first place. This was jokingly theorized because that was Eve Myles's first role in the Whoniverse, then confirmed in Journey's End when The Doctor was all, "Gosh you look familiar!"

So uh. She's pretty damn important to the Universe in that fashion.

[tommx.livejournal.com]

I like your convolutions on the stopwatch theory.

And yeah, I never quite got the whole last name being Costello thing. With They Keep Killing Suzie, I had hoped for some elaboration on her. (Actually, I was very upset when she got whacked in the first story as I was expecting her to be a regular)

My assumption is that her father knocked up her mother, but then fled and Suzie used the resources of Torchwood to find him with the intention of doing something mean to him for abandoning her. We can safely assume her mother was Welsh given Suzie's accent.

[rm.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I guess I mean:

- Does Jack just like Gwen because she's a hot chick who has compassion?
- Is Gwen "the one" who will save Torchwood because she actually has a life outside of it?
- Is Gwen really significant to the future in some way we don't know yet but that Jack does or has a suspicion about?

My guess is it's not more complicated than the first question, but sometimes the show makes it read that way.

[rm.livejournal.com]

That's a lot of hate for a guy that abandoned you. Sure, Suzie was nuts, but I think there had to be abuse there.

[tommx.livejournal.com]

You're right, abandonment would not be sufficient...

How about Suzie being the result of rape. Her mother, probably not terribly tightly wound herself, carried her to term, but then saw how much Suzie resembled her father, and held it against her for the rest of her life, recounting every detail of the rape to Suzie every year on her birthday. Those would have been Suzie's earliest memories. Hence, Suzie would have grown up seeing her own father as essentially not only an evil man who hurt her mother, but also the man responsible for her unhappy existence. There are many ways I could see this going.

What do you think?

[rm.livejournal.com]

I think it's perfect for the standpoint of teh way Torchwood tortures plot. But don't we see photos of Suzie with her dad when Gwen is trying to be helpful (stupid, stupid Gwen -- and granted I _like_ Gwen, but sometimes one of the messages of Torchwood seems to be "don't be helpful" because really bad things happen when people are).

[tommx.livejournal.com]

Ah, ok, well, there goes that theory. Let me think about it after I watch the episode again.

Really bad things happen when people are [ helpful]

[stardragonca.livejournal.com]

As opposed to...?

Is Gwen really significant in some way we don't know but that Jack does or has a suspicion about?

[stardragonca.livejournal.com]

As in has know who she was was all his life? Possible, but I don't think that's where the writers are going. But the events of the 21st century clearly remain significant to people centuries later.

[stardragonca.livejournal.com]

Not such a safe assumption. If you grow up in Wales, you have a Welsh accent. I sometimes have a Texas accent, and I'm the only Texan in the family.

[laufeyette.livejournal.com]

I don't see Ianto as being any more codependent than the most loyal of the Doctor's companions. They'll never get the storybook romance, but they know what's more important than that. Always better to stand by the hero, right?

My prom theme was "Don't You Forget About Me," and once again, you have made me giggle uncontrollably first thing in the morning. Thanks!

[gement.livejournal.com]

*snorgle*

Okay, only after the ramble above did I even consider the stopwatch/pocketwatch echo, but Romana is not the one I would have seen as Ianto.

Now my brain, which is very very flexible, will spend the rest of the day imagining how to resolve those personalities into one hypothetical person.

Romana always was a bit of a stickler for reading the manual and doing all the math before pushing buttons. The sense to the Doctor's flash. It's all coming together now...

[antelope-writes.livejournal.com]

One word: Goa.

Goa was a HUGE Portugese colony, where locals would get converted by the Catholics and given european-style surnames. It's the same as Melacca on the west coast of Malaysia, where you have a sizable population of ethnic Malays who are Catholic, have names like Delagoa, speak Portugese, etc.

And yes, Indira Varma is gorgeous.

[legionseagle.livejournal.com]

Costello's an Irish surname. I think she comes from an Anglo-Indian family ie that Grandfather Costello was out in the Raj before Independence (probably as a soldier stationed there, quite possibly during and even before WWII) and married a local girl, as did his son, and that there's a lot of messed up post-Colonialism in there (let's say that Papa Costello is a fervent Republican if not IRA supporter, harking back to his roots in County Mayo, and Mama Costello loathes the British with a passion because her father was one of Jinnah's most fervent adherents and got appallingly treated during the days of the Raj and Suzie insists on going off the Oxford and gets a job right in the heart of the British Establishment (Torchwood, after all, is a Crown corporation).

I mean, this is British TV after all. Why go to the trouble of having child abuse screw someone over when the class system and relations between the various constituent parts of the UK are so likely to do a better job?

[antelope-writes.livejournal.com]

I don't even remember the theme from my prom, but I do remember the one song that got EVERYBODY in the room up and dancing was Come Out and Play by the Offspring.

Regarding Ianto and backstory, Ianto did work for TW 1, and it's clear from Fragments that he has at least whatever knowledge the rumor mill put out about Jack. It's likely that he knows more than that. There are all kinds of dirty little secrets he could be holding over from TW One without requiring him to be a Time Lord, a Cyberman construct, or anything else like that.

[antelope-writes.livejournal.com]

Something else along those lines, if you look at family portraits from the Raj era, it's not actually that uncommon to see somebody who is clearly from somewhere in India, usually married to a (wealthy) younger son. The class system may have been snobs, but a "foreign princess" (or raja's daughter) with money managed to squeak through most of the time, especially the ones who were fair.

[legionseagle.livejournal.com]

If you grow up in Wales, you have a Welsh accent.

Very far from necessarily so. Though people brought up in Wales are likely to be able to pronounce words like Machynlleth so that other Welsh people will recognise when they do it. but quite a lot of Welsh people do not have a strong accent, particularly if they are in England and around English people.

[legionseagle.livejournal.com]

Oh, yes; have you read Jan Morris's Fisher's Face? Admiral Jackie Fisher always claimed to be descended from a a Javanese Princess (and, for that matter, Winston Churchill's mother claimed to be 1/4 Iroquois)

[kalichan.livejournal.com]

Re: the Goa thing - very true, but I've never heard of a S. Asian person with Costello as a last name.

I suppose one could also go the self-loathing Freddie Mercury route, and assume that she hates herself for her Indian-ness and has thus changed her name.

But basically, I actually think it's just weird race-blindness that the TW writers did not really think through when they named her, and it drives me mad.

[rm.livejournal.com]

Or they named her and the casting thing happened after (in which case, they should have renamed her, I think).

And wait, Freddie Mercury, WHAT?

[kalichan.livejournal.com]

Born Faroukh Bulsara, I believe. His family's from Gujarat. He even went to boarding school in Bombay. Only moved to England @ 17. Changed his name, etc etc.

[rm.livejournal.com]

Holy shit. I had no idea. That's sort of heartbreaking (and Freddie Mercury was already heartbreaking).

Your people. Damn.

Some Family History, Somewhat Relevant.

[stardragonca.livejournal.com]

Some Anglo-Indian families lived for generations in (British) India, only leaving after WWII/Independence.
When the latter left, their passports were stamped Non Resident by te new government.
My mother refuses to apply for a visa to visit a country she was born in, out of simple stubbornness.

[stardragonca.livejournal.com]

*snort* But somehow the Spacedragon theory is beyond the pale! *flounces from room* ;)

[lefaym.livejournal.com]

Totally agree about the stopwatch thing-- ever since Fragments aired, I've been pretty sure that that was the first time since Cyberwoman. It makes a lot of sense too, in that Ianto's now seen how ruthlessly Jack dealt with Suzie, and with Mary before her; I think this makes him realise that Jack didn't kill Lisa out of some sort of personal spite/jealousy, and helps him move on from the "stomach full of rats" stage.

And as for Ianto's backstory-- LOL, I had this dream about the first episode of S3 last night, and it was like a big soap opera about Ianto, with all the cliches of a hastily assembled woobie!Ianto fic. I think it had a sick/mentally ill mother, an abusive father, a homophobic uncle, and some kid that Ianto was responsible for somehow. It might have been a long lost half-brother or sister. Oh, and he was working undercover in a department store, trying to find aliens there, but that part didn't last very long.

TW Points

[raaven.livejournal.com]

1- It's funny, I've known that song for rather a long while...but this use of it has cemented it firmly to the visuals in my mind. I won't be able to hear it again without seeing Suzie dead, Gwen in the heart of Torchwood with her coworkers after coming back to life, the weird looks that I still haven't deciphered between Jack and Gwen.

2- I have to wonder about the whole Ianto/Lisa thing...it just rang false to me from the very beginning. Either there's a WHOLE lot of Ianto's personality that we haven't yet been made privy to (a very real possibility), or someone wrote him bizarrely out of character for the Cyberwoman ep. Fragments showed us that Ianto worked hard to get into Torchwood, though, and I can't help wondering despite what I just wrote whether he worked so hard at it in order to have access to safety and tech for Lisa's sake. He definitely had a weirdly uncomfortable look when he & Jack got untangled after the teradactyl incident...guilt at manipulating Jack, maybe? I dunno. Ianto is a puzzle.

3- there's a profound wariness and menace in this moment

There really, really is. It added a really odd note to that scene. Is it about the stopwatch stuff, or the glove stuff? Who found the glove originally, anyway? Does Ianto have something to do with it that we haven't been made aware of yet? Is the use and destruction of the 2nd glove the end of the resurrection glove story - or were the gloves part of a suit of armor? I think (and hope) that there is more to it, and more to what Ianto knows about it.

Re: TW Points

[rm.livejournal.com]

Also, you can't keep tossing us "There's something moving in the dark" without giving us some mythology clarity on what we keep hearing about and seeing glimpses of.

Re: TW Points

[raaven.livejournal.com]

Ugh, yes. I almost thought that was over with after Abbadon, but we've heard it since then also, haven't we? Or am I getting confused?

Re: TW Points

[rm.livejournal.com]

We've heard it since. And there's the matter of Owen's eyes doing what Bill Manger's do. I actually love it. I love the idea that death is scary and bad as a known thing, and Jack still wants it. But we need some delivery on that damn phrase.

Re: TW Points

[raaven.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I thought so.

I missed the bit about the eyes...now I'm going to have to go back and watch those bits again. Now that I'm thinking about it, though...Bilis Manger and Owen may have more than that in common - the two of them were key in getting the rift open the first time.

I'd also like to know what exactly was the deal with Owen and the weevils before he died, and how/why it continued past death. And is Owen really gone now? Yet another reason I crave series 3.

The Jack in my mind wants death partly as a relief, and partly as a challenge...no matter how bad or scary it's supposed to be, it's still a new adventure.

Re: TW Points

[rm.livejournal.com]

Wait, do you know about the big DW Series 3 reveal?

Re: TW Points

[raaven.livejournal.com]

Nope. Haven't gotten that far. Just starting Series 2.

[gement.livejournal.com]

Well, obviously. Romana can't be a spacedragon. ;P

[stardragonca.livejournal.com]

Well, she could if she wanted to!

Re: TW Points

[stardragonca.livejournal.com]

It's all too common in episodic television to open doors that are never entered. And it makes me crazy.

Re: Is Gwen really significant in some way we don't know but that Jack does or has a suspicion about

[darthhellokitty.livejournal.com]

But then I wonder if he'd have been so reluctant to accept her self-recruiting into Torchwood.

And then I think, who ELSE recruited themselves into Torchwood?

[darthhellokitty.livejournal.com]

Would it be rude to make a list of songs/artists I really wish people would stop making fanvids to? Because seriously, the shitty love theme from your prom does not, actually, say Jack/Ianto all over.


Fanvids, songfics (whether the lyrics are quoted at the beginning, or interspersed through the story, or god forbid SUNG BY A CHARACTER), those playlist kinds of things people put together - some truly awful songs have been used. Do not want. Also, most songs performed by John Barrowman are sort of Not Quite Right for these things.

Suzy Costello - possibly a brief early marriage? If she hated her birth name, she'd've kept it after ridding herself of the groom.

Did you see Indira Varma in Rome?

And the stopwatch - that was quite a WTF? moment the first time I saw it. My take on it (once I settled on one) was that it was extremely awkward geek flirting. Now, I wonder, especially with the significance of pocketwatches in the Whoniverse.

[rm.livejournal.com]

Yeah, LOVE Rome, although I thought she was under used.

Re: Is Gwen really significant in some way we don't know but that Jack does or has a suspicion about

[stardragonca.livejournal.com]

If she's important enough, historically, he might want her to go away and keep safe until history needs her. She may only be know to him because of a single incident.
The details of her life and times may not be known to him. (Quick, what did Santa Anna do when he lived in the U.S.?)

Of course, it's always possible that none of the above has been in any of the writers' minds.

Re: Is Gwen really significant in some way we don't know but that Jack does or has a suspicion about

[darthhellokitty.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure fans put a lot more thought into this stuff than the writers do.

what did Santa Anna do when he lived in the U.S.?

Which one?

[darthhellokitty.livejournal.com]

That seems to be her fate, wherever she lands.

(Of course, if I'd seen her in anything but that and TW, I could say that with some actual authority.)

Re: Is Gwen really significant in some way we don't know but that Jack does or has a suspicion about

[rm.livejournal.com]

Right. All of this sort of comes to mind because of a sam_storyteller fic wherein Jack knows who teh rest of the team are before he ever even recruts them because they are famous in history later. It's a eally lovely piece and has an especially fabulous Ianto story.

Re: TW Points

[rm.livejournal.com]

Okay, it's a thing a lot of people have been spoiled for, because it's a source of great fandom controversy, but I think it's the most awesome thing ever.

Anyway, in Season 3 because you're watching for Jack to a given extent, you're going to just sort of try to burn through the early episodes to get to the ones he's in. But, pay attention. There's important mythology stuff and Jack stuff buried in those episodes, although you won't know it until the very end of the last episode of the season. And it's brilliant.

Re: TW Points

[raaven.livejournal.com]

It really *is* brilliant. And it caught me from out of nowhere. I sat with my mouth quite literally hanging open for about a minute, then hooted with laughter.

In regard to something you said earlier in the conversation, I have to say I'm really, really shocked that Nine is considered the darker Doctor. Ten seems MUCH darker to me, not least because he seems to lack the simple joy that Nine threw into everything he did.