big life; small space

No! There isn't! It's a pic of John Barrowman and his partner, who looks sorta like Nathan Fillion! Gaaaah! I can't even explain it clearly.

From:

melebeth

Oh. Okay. John Barrowman and his partner are adorable together. That makes a lot more sense.

(It might not have been your explanation. My brain is totally fried at this point and my reading comprehension has gone down the tubes.)

Edited Date: 2009-03-27 05:38 pm (UTC)

From:

weirdquark

Am notably less charmed by the fetishization of them or gay folk in general -- believe it or not, it is possible to find something arousing and yet also not reduce it to nothing more than how it amuses you. I'm asking too much of the Internets again, aren't I?

I stopped going to panels on yaoi for pretty much that reason -- too many screaming fangirls who wanted to offer two guys money to make out in front of them, not enough people interested in discussing gender roles or issues in the genre.

From:

stardragonca.livejournal.com

I understood it right off.
Someone might get confused due to the sudden excitement involved in seeing the words John Barrowman, Nathan Fillion and kiss in close proximity, but that's totally not your responsibility.

From:

weirdquark

I didn't, but as I have no idea who Nathan Fillion is, I think it's due to my reading the sentence too fast. ::g::

From:

cruentum.livejournal.com

Well in Torchwood fandom in general the male-male kisses between cast members for fanservice seem the most noteworthy event of any convention these days... Fangirls don't even have to offer them money for a snog on stage.

From:

And isn't that depressing. Because you know what, the snogging is often quite hot and I think it's awesome to see blokes (most of whom are straight) being so damn cool about it. Even for actors, it's impressive. The world was different, even five years ago.

But I actually, believe it or not, want to hear what these people have to say. When people don't ask the same questions over and over, there's really a great deal of intelligence in that cast about character and process.

From:

Am notably less charmed by the fetishization of them or gay folk in general

It's funny, that while I have railed against the use of lesbian activities as some kind of preliminary or 'warmup' in 'straight' porn (for $value of 'straight'), i hadn't really given much thought to the idea that we as fanfic writers are reappropriating from the other side of the equation.

I will have to sit down and think about that, particularly in relation to my own queerness - I'm not sure if that makes the sin less, because I'm interrogating from a perspective that's closer, or greater, because I really ought to know better.

And I'm supposed to be thinking about purchase orders this am. Don't post such interesting things. :)

From:

cruentum.livejournal.com

Having read reports of the Hub2 I find what was actually asked and talked about in the panels very damn depressing indeed, because dude, (I have no room to talk, not going to cons and submitting questions), but what kind of half-arsed questions are those about the always same things.

Do you like exploring the darker part of Ianto's personality, gareth?

Yeah, I enjoyed Adam in particular, that was cool.

We know that much. Why not ask a question that goes a bit further than that rather than repeat it ten million times npull sad faces when GDL only snogs Rippy and there isn't more going on.

Torchwood is a really interesting show, that does touch on quite a bunch of things. The characters dynamics between Ianto and Jack alone are interesting enough and I bet GDL at least would have something to say about he sees it that goes further than two lines and a dirty joke.

No argument here, I love the snogging, and indeed the attitude about it, and the pics of Barrowman and Scott were great (especially since I had to grin wryly at the funny faces people pull just as they go into a kiss, almost like a stop motion movie), but you know, Torchwood is not only queer content, and the queer content in Torchwood is not reduced to only snogging either, so why doesn't anyone ask these questions? Granted, I'm not sure if a panel with the attention span of 2 sentences and alcohol is necessarily the right place but there are good questions that would be worth asking.

From:

stardragonca.livejournal.com

Dude, I am not here for your amusement, and neither is anyone else, unless public ridicule ,scorn and humiliation are things that you particularly enjoy.

From:

19-crows.livejournal.com

I'd wondered what was going on with fencing. It's weird to find out your body likes to be strong, isn't it? I have found the same thing.

A number of straight women I know are turned on by male gay sex - I had a friend who was interested in all the Brit cold war spy stuff because it had all these boy's school romances. It certainly makes the bare historical facts more interesting & understandable, I think.

When I was first aware of slash fiction it seemed like the gay sex was the whole point - Kirk showing his vulnerable side, Spock being cold and "manly" and finally giving in. It seems like a lot of fanfic now has gone beyond that but I'm sure for some people it remains the main thing. We all have our fantasies. How do we deal with them in a way that doesn't insult the real people they resemble?

From:

thatwordgrrl.livejournal.com

Yanno, I am a big ol' FillionFanGrrl. Have no issue admitting to it.

That being said, I have to have some sort of working assumption that he has at least one SO of some nature. Because, yanno, smart and kinda geeky wrapped up in a package of sexy.

Beyond that, I see no reason to care about the gender of his possible SO. If SO makes him happy, that's all good by me.

After that? 'taint my bidness if they do.

From:

kshandra

Nonetheless, this has still instilled within me a desire to see Captain Jack/Captain Tightpants fic. (Which may or may not be Fail on my part, considering the rest of that last bullet point.)

From:

Dude, I read and write slash too. And I don't get some free pass because I'm queer. I just get that queer folks have lives beyond titillating the Internets, and most people in fandom do too. It's just the not _all_ problem. And I'd read that fic too.

From:

*is momentarily distracted by some SERIOUSLY hot images*
*feels guilty now*

From:

kshandra

*nods* And I'd read Jack/Mal because it was the characters. If someone was writing Barrowman/Fillion, I'd advise them to put down the Internet and back away slowly.

From:

thatwordgrrl.livejournal.com

For me, it's goading ANY two actors from a show -- regardless of gender -- into putting on such a display. I mean, at Dragon*Con last year, there was all this audience yelling for a kiss between Nathan Fillion and Morena Baccarin.

Which, OK, they were good sports about it and all.

But I think most fans really don't get that if there is any sort of romantic (let alone sex) scene in a show, it's just the actors doing their job. OK, well, the actors, plus the sound guys and the lighting guys and...you get the idea.

What may come across as OMG TEH HOT to you as the viewer is far from that for the actors involved. My husband, who has worked as a SAG actor, assures me that they really are not the least bit so.

Now MAYBE James Marsters got a hard-on during his kissing scene with Barrowman. Dunno, and really don't either want or need to know. That's between Marsters and that particular part of his anatomy.

But *presuming* that? Oh, just...no.

From:

I'm actually big defender of RPS from an academic standpoint because it actually has a pretty significant literary history that I find fascinating.

But with fandom culture being what it is, and how often I've seen people egg each other on into having no sense, it's also a place that should be treat with courtesy, caution and perhaps even suspicion.

For me personally (and I have committed RPF) it's a land of very odd murkiness, because I've totally stumbled across porn people have written about folks I actually know. That's always a little odd. (by which I mean, SEVERELY FUCKING ODD).

From:

No no no! No guilt. Dude, I write all the slash EVAR. It's just... high, I know the idea of gay men wasn't put on this earth so I could get off thinking about 'em. Most people in fandom also grok this. It's just those few who don't that make things suck.

From:

I'm sorry, my brain has completely derailed into watching Jack press Mal up against the railing overlooking the cargo hold, exchanging long slow open-mouthed kisses, thrusting gently against Mal's hip, hands groping his arse through those FABULOUS tight britches..

well, I'm clearly not going to get anything else accomplished for the next 20 minutes or so. Guess it's time for a lunch break.. :D

From:

hyrkanian.livejournal.com

I am a straight woman (to date at least, I reserve the right to change my sexual tastes without prior notice or explanation ;) and I'm very much turned on by gay male sex. Although that may be from some of my former triad MFM relationships, who knows. But it is what it is and I like what it is. :D

From:

kshandra

I think perhaps I stay away from the genre because I'm afraid I'll like it too much. *wry smile* Because I can see where it would become all too easy to fetishize and objectify the subject matter.

I've written RPF, as well - and it was a self-insert, at that. Penthouse had a "Celebrity Fantasy" column for a while; when I was never contacted for publication, I posted it online.... But I remained cognizant all the while that it was, in fact, a fantasy - that my subjects had lives and families and day jobs, and that I was part of none of those. I'd worry if I lost sight of that.

From:

loveslashangst.livejournal.com

*amused at beta*

And people wonder where I get some of my ideas from. You can tell it's been a while since I threw her some decent Jack slash.

FWIW, I completely understand what you're saying, rm. I'm a latecomer to fanfic in general and mm slash in particular. It's been... a learning experience.

Maybe it's just me, but that's where my own sexuality comes in. Because I hold to the "gender is spice" approach to bisexuality, the pairing/grouping is just set-dressing -- I'm MUCH more interested in the interplay of personalities. Compatible. Conflicted. A bit of both. And, for me, the heart of slash is not that it involves non-straight pairings/groupings, but that it always seeks to arrange trysts between the characters with the greatest conflicts. THAT makes for the greatest hawtness-factor and the greatest interest.

I think that's why for me visual porn is meh, but write it out and mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

I also choose to be pollyanna enough to hope that in a generation or two, people will wonder what the big deal was and why we couldn't just get the idea that it's the love and commitment that count, not the gender/orientation.

/soapbox

(*looks a bit shamefaced*)

(Sorry, I hadn't intended for that to be a rant.)

From:

sushis.livejournal.com

"Am notably less charmed by the fetishization of them or gay folk in general -- believe it or not, it is possible to find something arousing and yet also not reduce it to nothing more than how it amuses you."

I agree with this. I don't know anything about the fandom you're discussing, but the general principle, yes. Yet, I do think it's possible to go too far in the direction of demanding that women not objectify the objects of their lust (I'm not saying you are doing this, just that I've seen this happen.) I think objectification, in some sense, can be a positive thing, and shouldn't always be a source of shame for the objectifier. But, it's not an excuse for making the person one lusts after/around/about uncomfortable, which is the real crux of the matter, the place where ethics come into it, in my opinion.

From:

sushis.livejournal.com

re: the sin of objectification

Just an unsolicited opinion from someone you've never met: in my opinion, there is no sin in the context of fantasy and/or porn. I know that's not a universally-accepted proposition, but I strongly believe people need leeway to let their minds go where they will on occasion.

From:

I agree that there is no sin in the context of the fantasy.

But one of the ongoing issues in fandoms I've been in is people who, say, write slash, but then complain about "faggots" or actually oppose gay marriage. I'm sorry, if you're getting off to queers, you don't have to go be gay rights activists, but you shouldn't be actively trying to make life worse for gay people either. That's the peeve.

From:

sushis.livejournal.com

I have heard of this before, guess I still have trouble believing it! But I have no reason not to believe you or other people who have described it. I really have trouble wrapping my brain around the possibility of women finding the idea of men having sex to be sexy, but also being openly homophobic. Maybe partly because, in my case, I rather quickly went from an immature "OMG HAWT! Why in the world would you be offended at my drooling at you?" to "Oh, right, gay people have a right not to be treated like zoo animals. And, the law shouldn't be denying them other rights, either."

Maybe what's really foreign to me is the idea of sexual attraction not eventually finding its way to empathy? But, yeah, that is rather naive of me...

From:

I believe some of the iterations of this insanity in Harry Potter fandom made it to fandom wank. I don't think any of the iterations in DW/TW have yet, although they've been vitriolic and off-line in my own experience (others might have other knowledge).

From:

Maybe what's really foreign to me is the idea of sexual attraction not eventually finding its way to empathy?

Please turn your attention to Exhibit A, the Republican halves of the Senate and House..

[/snark]

(Okay, maybe not the WHOLE half of each, but jesus, how many of them have had sex/perversion scandals the last couple of years?)

Edited Date: 2009-03-27 08:16 pm (UTC)

From:

better-late24.livejournal.com

Huh. That is so strange. It never really occurred to me that people could be into slash and then not actually be OK with real people being gay. It's counterintuitive.

Also? Scott does look like Nathan Fillion a bit in those pics. I think it's the brown he's wearing.

I've always been amused that there are TWO captains in suspenders (or braces, if you like) I swoon over.

From:

right, don't profit (even if it's just personal enjoyment) by objectification, then turn around and fault the object for it.

From:

Am vaguely amused by fandom folk mistaking John Barrowman's partner for Nathan Fillion; am charmed by the pictures of them kissing at the Priscilla premiere. Am notably less charmed by the fetishization of them or gay folk in general -- believe it or not, it is possible to find something arousing and yet also not reduce it to nothing more than how it amuses you. I'm asking too much of the Internets again, aren't I?

Uch, I'm glad you brought this up, because I was thinking of writing an entry. In short, I was going to try and explain why "I love gay men!" is different from saying "I love John and Scott!" (which, fair enough) or "Awww, they're so cute together!" (which they are) or even "Wow, two guys making out makes me hot!" (because that statement won't become any less true by not admitting it). I got myself too hot and bothered in the end though and had to stomp off.

Makes me realise I do cacoon myself quite soundly in my little corner of the internet with my savvy friendslist. Whenever I venture into the wider world I just come away going D:

From:

I universally accept it. I feel very strongly no one should ever have to feel ashamed, or pretend that they're not aroused by something (appropriate company not withstanding, obviously) provided they don't ever wield it to do harm. For one thing, disapproving of it won't make it go away - straight guys won't stop finding two girls together hot just because I don't like it, or even if society took such a swing that it became unacceptable to admit it. It's far healthier to be able to realise your kinks, whatever they are, via fantasy than it is to pretend they don't exist.

From:

qthelights.livejournal.com

Really?? people who, say, write slash, but then complain about "faggots" or actually oppose gay marriage.

I haven't come across that in my fandoms so far... thank god... why on earth would people write slash if they feel that way??! I just don't even understand that..

From:

fandom folk mistaking John Barrowman's partner for Nathan Fillion

bwuh?

From:

http://community.livejournal.com/ohnotheydidnt/33491347.html#cutid1

From:

I think if Nathan Fillion, Tobey McGuire and Jake Gyllenhaal all clubbed together and had a love child, you'd just about get Scott.

From:

that's... special

From:

Tobey McGuire and Jake Gyllenhaal - they're kinda the same already aren't they?

i think tobey would play a really good serial killer

From:

Tobey can ride a horse better (see Seabiscuit vs Brokeback). They're not far off the same, but thanks to Spiderman I can't see McGuire as anything other than a pure and dedicated power for nerdy goodness. He's like candy floss with a heart of edible gold. Gyllenhaal's candy floss centre is made of something else entirely, though I admit I'm not quite sure what at this point. I was gonna go with tabasco sauce, but now I'm thinking marmite, and now I'm thinking that I really think about these things far too hard.

i think tobey would play a really good serial killer

This so should have been the twist at the end of Zodiac.

From:

heh
it would have been an interesting twist, i got a little bored in the middle of that movie

TM just has that perfectly innocent and slightly confused look about him - it hides the darkness well
he'd be like the best serial killer ever, no one would suspect

From:

darthhellokitty.livejournal.com

I think Scott is much better looking than Nathan Fillion; however, it may just be because of the context I usually see him in.

From:

wednesday

Mmmm. I can see it from the top, I guess, but Mr. the Partner's kind of a vertically compacted Nathan Fillion. It's like if Fillion was on the old CDN$2 bill and one folded that bill in half down the face and then back out again.

Lots of things were narrower in the UK than North America when I lived there, so that makes more sense than it probably sounds like it does.

From:

laughingacademy.livejournal.com

Did you see The Making of Me: John Barrowman this weekend? (Bizarrely, there do not seem to be any repeats scheduled this week.) It was mostly John interacting with scientists who are trying to determine if there is a biological cause for male homosexuality, but there was some footage of John with Scott and assorted family members (including apparently spontaneous lapses into the brogue).

From: