sundries

[rm]

I'm getting better. But, UGH.

So I'm really stewing about Torchwood, series 3. I'm not ready. I'm not. So often I've gotten into something after the fact, so I've been just, you know, ready. Whatever happened had already happened, and so it was fine. But this isn't that, and while I largely don't believe the Ianto death rumours (I'm 110% certain Rhys is doomed), I'm actually scared they're true. And for me, Ianto's demise would be rather interesting. Normally it's the characters I identify with that die; not the ones the characters I identify with have a thing for. I imagine that hurts differently. And aside from all the reasons I don't want Ianto to die: the fandom flailing will be more than I can take. I suppose, if it happens, let it be a better, less stupid death than Snape got. (Snape's death was supposed to be this awesome catharsis for me, instead we got... snake bubble to the head? He was just a creepy stalker? yeah... sorry, no.)

Anyway, this hit me today, reading a fic, and me grokking why fandom is so fucking in love with the Jack/Ianto thing. Because it's not that Jack's a charming asshole and Ianto is so put upon -- nope, those fics, in my mind, get it wrong. Where it works, where it's compelling, where it's the fairytale that drags us all in is that when Jack apologizes, when Ianto apologizes -- it actually enough. There are no deal-breakers, not because they are codependent morons, but because they'll both do anything to make up for their former sins. And it's enough. It's enough. In real life, there's all sorts of things where nothing ever could be enough. That's what's compelling -- not the are they in love or aren't they question -- but the ability to absolve and be absolved. It's the loyalty. It's the trying to do better, even if they're both doomed to be fuckups. It's what's appealing about Gwen too. And Rhys. And Owen. See, this show is often a crappy piece of shit, but sometimes it's fucking beautiful.

So this is me saying, I'M NOT READY YET.

On that note, worked on EtGB last night. We're coming along. Next part soonish.

I've heard back from one of three sport fencing salles I wrote to, and will be visiting next week. Their training schedule for "beginning" fencers is far less rigorous than what I've been used to, but one assumes I'll be able to get out of rank beginner status quickly, so I can do more. Also, I could do multiple weapons at once (saber. I will do saber, and I will be good, so very very good and fuck everyone) to resolve of this, I suppose. The whole thing still feels weird to me, but this is how things are, this is what must needs be done.

It was a hard weekend. The weather in my head sucked. But Patty was great, and it was a good team-building weekend, so hey.

And OMG, redstapler just linked me to gluten-free Asian food in NYC (my last place closed). Tempura! Dumplings! WILL BE MINE.

If I'm feeling well enough, I'm going to try to write the railroad story tonight.

Comments

[violetisblue.livejournal.com]

I have no idea if that rumor about Ianto is true or not (or if there's even going to be a S4, for that matter), but if it is, oh my God, Wankageddon will ensue. I'll be over here.

[fmanalyst.livejournal.com]

Ianto is the character I really identify with, especially his work personality and his sense of humor, so I really wouldn't want to see him go. Because frankly, there aren't all that many characters out there on television with that personality type. Most organized, archival type characters on TV are also bureaucratic, by-the-book jerks.

[ladyaelfwynn.livejournal.com]

I spent much of last week rewatching Torchwood season 1 whilst finishing up outfits for CostumeCon. I really hope no one else bites it.

When Remus bought it in DH, I was a basket case. I found out in a spoiler in a friends LJ whilst I was at work. I wanted to sob hysterically but couldn't because that would have been too goofy to try and explain. Instead I cried silently all the way home on the Metro and had a good sob once I'd gotten home.

Much of my love for Remus came from the fact that in many ways he reminded me of my husband and loosing Remus felt a little like what I'd imagine that to feel like. There was the breathlessness of terror and disbelief. The crushing weight of the certainty. The dread of knowing I hadn't gotten there yet and still having to face it.

I hope that Ianto survives. He's actually one of the characters I really like. I have very mixed feelings about Gwen and Jack. And my favorite, Tosh, is no longer here. :-(

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

It's the loyalty. It's the trying to do better, even if they're both doomed to be fuckups. It's what's appealing about Gwen too. And Rhys. And Owen. See, this show is often a crappy piece of shit, but sometimes it's fucking beautiful.

Yeah. Sing it.

but noooo, don't let Rhys be doomed!

As for Ianto, it'd be foolish for him to die, IMO. Two major characters have been killed off already. We know Torchwood people die young but this kind of burn rate is flippin' ridic. If he HAS to leave the show I'd much rather he be retconned back to his innocent youth or something. He's been through enough.

[neifile7.livejournal.com]

There are no deal-breakers, not because they are codependent morons, but because they'll both do anything to make up for their former sins. And it's enough. It's enough. In real life, there's all sorts of things where nothing ever could be enough. That's what's compelling -- not the are they in love or aren't they question -- but the ability to absolve and be absolved. It's the loyalty. It's the trying to do better, even if they're both doomed to be fuckups.

You have got me where I live. And where I'm writing. Thank you.

(and oh god, pls moar EtBG soon, yes?)

[rm.livejournal.com]

I want to say a few days, but with the extraneous circumstances, my guess is a week or two. We're getting close though. Lots of physical confrontations in this one.

[xtricks.livejournal.com]

I've already flailed at length about my thoughts on Ianto (and I'm slowly becoming sure that he isn't going to die - the way the show is being avertised and talked about in interviews doesn't suggest that) but I agree it isn't the woobiness about the two that does it for me, it is the loyalty. And, to a certian extent, the difficult past they have - because they are struggling to do better and their imperfections haven't doomed them (or anyone else on the show, for that matter, which is one of the reason the 'great whore of cardiff' gwen stuff and the rapey!Owen stuff bugs me).

Though, Jack is a charming asshole ;)

[rm.livejournal.com]

Yes, Jack is. But why the character works is because the characterization doesn't stop there. He could just be the bad boy people want to shag because he's that asshole. But he's not -- to wander into another fandom -- the Comedian from Watchmen. We don't (just) love Jack for his flaws, we love Jack for trying to address the really awful ones. It's progress, in terms of male characterization in pop culture, I think.

Intellectually, and based on convos I've had with people, I think Ianto is safe too, but the fear about it is oppressive, I've had to start considering it, just from that "prepare for the worst" perspective.

Rhys though? SO FUCKING DEAD.

[xtricks.livejournal.com]

Oh, yes. I love the fact that Jack is actaully not a nice guy sometimes but also often heroic and human. I also *love* the fact that he's visually the classic, old-fashioned hero (dress, looks, etc) and not visually portrayed as the newer (and currently popular) anti-hero (lots of black leather, no sense of humor, resistant to authroity but has a strong moral value) either visually or characterzation-wise and he's actually neither of those archtypes. His is actually morally grey at times (unlike the classic hero, who rarely is or the anti-hero who pretends to be but actually isnt), and struggling as we all do with what is right and wrong and how to get there.

Rhys though? SO FUCKING DEAD.

I'm not so sure. I haven't been following stuff too closely lately but ... considering the title of the show and the line about Gwen and Rhys facing some sort of terrible choice ... I think the issue is going to be that Gwen gets pregnant, or might be pregnant and has to chose her job or family. Esp since this was foreshadowed in later episodes in S2

Still, we'll just have to see and I plan on spoiling myself when the show airs to make sure I get no unpleasant surprises.

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

I think the issue is going to be that Gwen gets pregnant, or might be pregnant and has to chose her job or family. Esp since this was foreshadowed in later episodes in S2.

See, this is what I'm thinking. And wasn't there a spoiler about a conflict between Jack and Rhys? It could easily be tied to something like this. (Not to my icon, but that would be kind of cool.) :D

Hmm.

ETA: Correct Rhys and Jack icon!

[bodlon.livejournal.com]

I am doing the same thing I did before S2, and I'm doing it with extreme stubbornness. Whenever I start to get tense about S3, I sit myself down and remind myself that I can't judge the thing before it airs. Yeah, I've seen spoiler pics. Yeah, I know some of what's going to happen. But I haven't seen the whole thing, I've got only a little context.

But yeah. I get your tension. There are whole months of my calendar (yeah, I have a TW calendar in my office) that make me wince to look at them. Because, damn S2. Ouch.

I'm taking the optimistic view that everybody lives. I like this view. It makes me happy. After all, we had cruel and sudden death last series, and you can't play that card too often or it loses its punch.

[cozzene.livejournal.com]

On the GF subject. I don't recall if you cook or if you enjoy GF beer, but you can make a wonderful tempura batter with GF beer and rice flour and a little baking powder. Let me know if you want the recipe.

[brewsternorth.livejournal.com]

but noooo, don't let Rhys be doomed!

I know, right? Kai's an awesome actor, and it seems the writers finally discovered that in S2.

(iconlove *g*)

[lefaym.livejournal.com]

I think the issue is going to be that Gwen gets pregnant, or might be pregnant and has to chose her job or family.

My crack!theory is that Gwen will get pregnant in S4 and they will transfer the baby to Rhys using alien tech -- that way we get canon mpreg, but not as most people would expect it. And even though the idea seems ridiculous, it's Torchwood, so it COULD HAPPEN! :P

[lefaym.livejournal.com]

and while I largely don't believe the Ianto death rumours (I'm 110% certain Rhys is doomed), I'm actually scared they're true.

Agreed. Well, I don't know about Rhys, but the Ianto rumours don't quite sit right with me. Personally, my theory is (I should probably do a proper post about this) that there's a scene in which Ianto APPEARS to die, causing Jack to have EPIC MANPAIN, but it turns out that he actually didn't die after all and got save at the last minute, which means we will get an EPIC REUNION. This would explain the source of the rumours, while also allowing Ianto to live another season and not completely fucking up the dynamic of the show.

And if Rhys does die -- well, I guess the only positive side to that would be a potential J/G/I thing in S4, which I would really love to see explored (but not with Rhys around). I really don't want Rhys to die though.

[amand-r.livejournal.com]

EPIC MANPAIN

....

I don't know why I have never heard this before, but yes, this. This is what Jack seems to do. I was rewatching eps last night and yes. I saw a lot of this. Heh.

I just got into TW this year, and I wish I had has more time before my right and proper Jossing comes along. Because I NEVER see anything coming. I am so screwed.

[rm.livejournal.com]

I think this makes sense. I also worry about a reappearance by a Glove due to some shots of Jack wearing on in a recent TW mag, and the fact that it looks to have a slightly different design than the two we've seen so far. I've long wanted more glove mythos, but wow, could that indicate some heartbreak there.

[sparta5.livejournal.com]

"...but one assumes I'll be able to get out of rank beginner status quickly, so I can do more. Also, I could do multiple weapons at once (saber. I will do saber, and I will be good, so very very good and fuck everyone) to resolve of this, I suppose. The whole thing still feels weird to me, but this is how things are, this is what must needs be done."

You GO! :-) Sabre rocks!

[heron61.livejournal.com]

I remember similar rumors about season 2, and agree that Rhys is clearly the doomed one.

[twystedpixie.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure if you know about this bakery (probably), but if not, there is a fantastic gluten-free place called Babycakes in NYC. You should try it sometime if you haven't already. :)

[rm.livejournal.com]

Well in season 2:

- Rhys was supposed to die (twice!)
- Owen's plotline was originally Ianto's plotline.
- THEN a rumour leaked about the Tosh and Owen deaths, which turned out to be true.

Which is why people are going insane about the season 3 rumours, which may well be fabricated -- so many people can claim vague social relationships with so many folks who work on the show because Torchwood is the fandom/creator axis of bad boundaries, getting people freaked out takes almost no effort.

[rm.livejournal.com]

Oh yes. Big fan.

[heron61.livejournal.com]

Owen's plotline was originally Ianto's plotline.

*blinks* I hadn't heard that one.

[rm.livejournal.com]

True fact!

They originally were going to have Ianto be undead (which explains the weird vibe of the dance with Jack in the Gwen wedding episode), but then decided that it worked better to do it to Owen who was so about physical life with all the drinking and fucking.

[kel-reiley.livejournal.com]

It's the loyalty. It's the trying to do better, even if they're both doomed to be fuckups. It's what's appealing about Gwen too. And Rhys. And Owen. See, this show is often a crappy piece of shit, but sometimes it's fucking beautiful.

THIS
i so hope those rumors are FALSE
i don't want rhys to die, either - i really feel that would break gwen and she won't come back stronger from it, if at all
(i fear for andy)

[kel-reiley.livejournal.com]

HAH! i love this

[kel-reiley.livejournal.com]

the thing with the gloves we've already seen is that they were not a pair
they did not look alike and they obviously did not do the same thing
so there could be like billions of gloves from the crazy-weird-metal-glove planet and they could all have different, yet slightly similar, powers

[better-late24.livejournal.com]

I completely agree about getting into the fandom after the fact. I jumped it right when series 2 ended and therefore was FINE with everything that happened. It already happened. But with series 3 hanging out there like an ax ready to fall, it's freaking me out. I won't lie, the Jack/Ianto relationship is the primary reason I watch (the show isn't THAT good), and while it would for sure be interesting to see how they'd handle Ianto's death, there would be a little girl inside of me bawling and having a fit. Really, I love his character...took me a little bit to care and then I was completely, desperately hooked.

I really don't think he will die, though. Not that I'm not still worried that they'll screw everything up in any number of ways...but I don't find it probable at this point. Rhys, though? Yeah, that's likely happening, and that saddens me, as well.

You know, every time you post, I am overwhelmed by how MUCH you seem to do. I envy you, really. I don't think I'm capable of that level of activity. But I'm happy to watch ;)

[rm.livejournal.com]

I am never doing nothing, and it's a mixed blessing. On one hand, it's how I manage my anxiety -- no dead time. But I'm tired a lot and frustrated usually by how much more I can't get done. I want to do everything. I don't think there's any amount of life that would be enough for me.

[coriander.livejournal.com]

I agree about the Jack/Ianto (et al) working because they just accept that this is the reality, and the fact that they love each other IS what matters. It isn't ALWAYS the case, but hadn't thought about it before, and I think you're right.

Other shows are filled with so much drivel... people being just plain stupid and mean to each other. Bleh.

[chaos-by-design.livejournal.com]

He was just a creepy stalker?

Re: Snape, YES.

[qthelights.livejournal.com]

Yes, so much yes.

When Jack wakes up at the end of S1, after being betrayed by all his team - the Jack/Ianto kiss/hug, the Owencryinghug. The it's okay, I understand. Is really quite beautiful, and so unknown in television tropes.

[darthhellokitty.livejournal.com]

I was actually nauseated with worry and fear before Season 2 finale; I'd heard the rumor about Tosh and Owen, and I didn't really believe it but... god, no. Please, let me not work myself up to that point this time.

I'm just so worried about it - the semi-season, whether there'll be a fourth - you'd think I had no actual real-life problems to worry about!

[smirnoffmule.livejournal.com]

This will be the only way for any Gwen pregnancy storyline to redeem itself in my eyes. Otherwise I shall scream because, FFS, there are other storylines out there for women, even married ones.

[fmanalyst.livejournal.com]

Here it is a year later, and I'm working on my Torchwood essay, going back through LJ to see what people were saying leading up to COE. It's fascinating that this discussion was going on two months before COE aired.

[rm.livejournal.com]

I read through a TON of this stuff the week before I wrote my paper in case there was anything useful there for something, and I was mentally and emotionally exhausted by the end of doing so. It was neat to revisit, but ugh. I imagine, if you're reading a lot of this stuff, you're going to hit the same point.

[fmanalyst.livejournal.com]

I'll admit to a migraine, but that may be due to the oxyclean. I'm doing laundry while I read the archives. The most Interesting thing to me at this point is that I had forgotten how many spoilers rumors were circulating in the months before broadcast. I also am remembering the other objections to COE besides Ianto's death, and I want to make sure I discuss them in my paper.

[rm.livejournal.com]

So much shit was going around. One of the big things, that you may not find clearly spelled out is there was a small gathering at a con wherein Gareth talked about Ianto in the past tense. I don't remember which con it was, but one of the people there talked about it and got shut down because it was supposed to be a private conversation and/or people didn't believe her, but that was always the source of the initial "Ianto is going to die" rumours that then everyone was trying to deny -- cast included.

[fmanalyst.livejournal.com]

I caught a glimpse of that report this morning but I lacked the context. Thanks.

[rm.livejournal.com]

I _think_ it was at one of the Hub cons, one of the "intimate encounter" things they do, which of course, makes a lot of fandom snerk. There are a lot of off-the-record and quasi-off-the-record things that make it all very obvious in retrospect, but so many people had such ambiguous interactions with so many other people and wound up trashing people for those or trying to protect people for those that it was impossible to assemble at the time.

I think if that initial slip had never been made the tone of everything leading up to it would have been pretty different.

[fmanalyst.livejournal.com]

So do you think that lead-in discussion over spoilers affected the mourning that resulted? Would the grief occurred in a similar way or a completely different way?

[rm.livejournal.com]

I don't think it had an impact on the mourning, but I think it had an impact on the anger. I think that had that initial leak not happened that it's possible there might have been less "you guys are going to be really happy" from the creators. If people hadn't been so fucking paranoid that Ianto was going to die (which was narratively a logical eventuality), the supposed "bait and switch" would have been less necessary.

[fmanalyst.livejournal.com]

So that it ended up being a sort of damage control effort: OMG, the fans know one of the big spoilers. We need to make them think it wasn't true. That sort of thing?

Which con (and who was it?) that the "you guys are going to be happy" came from? I seem to remember that it was attributed to Barrowman and one of the writers.

[rm.livejournal.com]

I believe it was Barrowman who said the quote you mentioned. James Moran was the writer who took most of the flack. He's been perceived by the fans at teh most pro J/I guy on staff, because he wrote the Captain's Blog for the BBC and was probably one of the people most socially engaged with fans both on and offline. Post-everything, it's also been framed as him being the guy in the room who was like "If you kill Ianto the fans are going to freak the fuck out," yet despite this, he's the guy who got blamed, even though a group of people made the decision and he didn't write the episode in question (that was John Fay who had never written SF/F stuff before and has a background as a soap writer and was FLOORED by the whole thing when we spoke at Gallifrey One). I believe he said that there would be lots of relationship development between Jack and Ianto in CoE and the fact that that relationship development took a less than hearts and flowers turn, at least in terms of clear, verbal declarations, made lots of people feel like he flat-out lied to them, and so he was the guy who got the bulk of the threats, etc in the immediate aftermath.

[fmanalyst.livejournal.com]

Yes, re Moran. That's one of the events that I want to discuss in my paper -- the way that Moran became targeted, as much because he was the one with the most prominent internet presence. I was planning my book as I was watching it happen and knew I'd end up writing about this. I ended up printing out 9 pages of his twitter feed at the time. I plan to examine those pages of his blog as well. I would love the chance to interview him about that experience of being the flashpoint for fan anger with the authors of the show.