Oh Noes! There's Gay People In My Fandom!
Jul. 2nd, 2009 10:51 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
rmI want to preface this by saying that not only do I not have the solution, I'm having a hard time defining the problem, because it's more complex than it seems at first glance. I also want to preface this by saying I'm not interested in the misery olympics, nor do I speak for (or about) all fannish types or all queer folks who intersect with fandom. I'm also not interested in explaining Privilege 101 to anyone. Yes, I'm expecting a bit of awareness or prep work to ride this ride. (ETA: Since I am starting to get some comments that Don't Get It, let me direct you to: http://www.derailingfordummies.com/)
Let me also say that this isn't remotely as artful as it could or should be, because I'm sorta pissed off right now.
Fandom has a problem. It's about gender, sexual-orientation, arousal and privilege.
Facts as I see them:
- people write fanfic and create fanart and fanvids. Much of this content examines relationships emotionally and/or sexually. Some of this material reflects the canon relationships of programs, some doesn't. Some of this content reflects gay relationships, some straight, with a decent amount of "other" (poly, other-gendered, etc etc etc) thrown in.
- the relationship structures/types are, in some circles, viewed very much like a genre. Het or Slash becomes a genre as much as Romance or Horror does.
- through this relationship orientation/structure/type being viewed as a genre situation, a number of trends, some problematic, begin to occur. These largely seem to center around a disconnect between fiction and fantasy.
And that's where the following rant comes in:
Real, live queer people exist out there in the world and real, live queer people exist in fandom. And I am sick and tired of us being either something merely fetishized or relegated to a genre either appealing or not.
I am _not_ saying that het people shouldn't be writing slash (one unfortunate drama I've seen on the Internet lately), because hey, what turns you on, what interests you, no matter who you are, THAT'S PART OF YOUR SEXUAL AND EMOTIONAL IDENTITY TOO and I'm all for it.
But, for fuck's sake, if you're going to write slash, you don't get to do that and then say that real life homosexuality is immoral (yep, seen this one in fandom -- and yes, I'm looking at you, Harry Potter fandom) without there being repercussions in the sense of community disapproval.
You also might want to consider that going to a Gay Pride parade just to ogle same-sex couples kissing and not because the parade is fun or important or meaningful AND BRAGGING ABOUT IT, is also a bit outre (yep, seen this one in fandom recently too).
You might also want to take a step back from calling every random celebrity queer couple heroes for being out in places where it's largely safe to be out. I'm not saying it's not brave -- it's hard to be famous and gay and people still get bashed even in places like New York City. But, people have given up their lives in this struggle, and for those of us in the struggle, even if we're pretty privileged and haven't had to do the scary stuff (and for the record, I have been a target of anti-gay violence, harassment and rape threats; I've sat in the ER with friends who have been bashed) -- it's creepy when you call us heroes because you like watching us kiss/hold hands/fuck (yep, seen this one in fandom recently, and yeah, I'm looking at you Torchwood fandom). I am not a hero for turning you on, and neither in John Barrowman. Got it? Good.
Now, while we're at it, you might also wish to remember that while your fictional queer people may be posable dolls, real-life queer people aren't. Think fucking twice about asking people to kiss for your amusement, even if they've been perfectly willing to do it before because the gay people who aren't targets of that moment, who are sitting there in that room with you? It can make us feel like shit, because wow, wouldn't it be nice if you were as interested in our stories as our flesh? (And yes, seen this in fandom recently. Seen it at cons. Seen it towards celebrities, seen it towards cosplayers, seen people not get the difference between choosing to do something for one's own amusement as opposed to an audience. Had this shit directed at me, even by people I consider friends. NOT COOL, PEOPLE.)
And tangentally related to the above? Don't ask couples who the top is. Seriously. Don't. Fuck you. (and to continue on a theme, seen it in fandom, seen it directed at celebs, seen it directed at fans, had it directed at me -- why is it so hard to understand that just because someone will seemingly talk about anything you don't have a right to know anything you want? Also the simplification of gay sexuality into role a or role b is really fucking rude).
Now, you don't like slash? It's not your genre? It doesn't turn you on? THAT'S FINE and you're not being homophobic. The problems always start after that -- and those problems? Yeah, sometimes that is homophobia in action. Here's some shit you might want to think twice about doing:
- When you list stuff you don't like in fiction, try not to bookend references to homosexuality with things like horror, incest, rape, etc. Because that? That sure looks homophobic. (Hey fandom, this one happened YESTERDAY).
- When queer content isn't to your taste? Don't call it icky. (DOES NO ONE HAVE ANY COMMON SENSE? -- also yesterday in fandom)
- And seriously people, when there's a discussion about what categories are and are not included in an awards community or whatever, have enough of a clue to realize that heterosexual content is privileged in the media and that gay content isn't. Having awards for that limited amount of gay content in the mainstream media is not actually "the same sort of discrimination" as awards that purport to be for all content but that actively exclude gay content. (That was also this morning, fandom).
Advice in four words: PRIVILEGE - LOOK IT UP!
Look people, it's pretty simple. Slash is a word for a type of content that pairs two characters of the same gender together (the specificity of whether this means non-canon pairing or includes canon pairing is a debate, but not one relevant to this post), and you can feel pretty much any which way about it, I don't much happen to care -- because the issue here isn't sentiment, it's conduct.
But what slash means is that the content it applies to tells stories about gay people: what they do at work, what they argue about in the kitchen, what they feel in their hearts, and yes, often enough (because holy crap, the Internet is for porn) how they fuck.
The key words in the above sentence, in case you got distracted by the implication of curtains!fic or porn: "stories about gay people."
Gay people are real. We are in your fandom. We are very happy to be here. We are happy to exist in fandom content in a way we don't often in the original material content. We, and the fictional characters whose lives reflect our own to some small degree, get to have full lives here in a way we don't often get from ABC or NBC or CBS or the BBC or WHATEVER at 8pm and sadly for many of us, in a way we don't always get to have with our families or in our workplaces.
So stop treating us like we're fictional. Like that real gay people are inconveniences or blow-up dolls or just some weird, slightly novel, abstract idea.
It's rude, it's ignorant, and most importantly, it's boring. Knock it off.
Let me also say that this isn't remotely as artful as it could or should be, because I'm sorta pissed off right now.
Fandom has a problem. It's about gender, sexual-orientation, arousal and privilege.
Facts as I see them:
- people write fanfic and create fanart and fanvids. Much of this content examines relationships emotionally and/or sexually. Some of this material reflects the canon relationships of programs, some doesn't. Some of this content reflects gay relationships, some straight, with a decent amount of "other" (poly, other-gendered, etc etc etc) thrown in.
- the relationship structures/types are, in some circles, viewed very much like a genre. Het or Slash becomes a genre as much as Romance or Horror does.
- through this relationship orientation/structure/type being viewed as a genre situation, a number of trends, some problematic, begin to occur. These largely seem to center around a disconnect between fiction and fantasy.
And that's where the following rant comes in:
Real, live queer people exist out there in the world and real, live queer people exist in fandom. And I am sick and tired of us being either something merely fetishized or relegated to a genre either appealing or not.
I am _not_ saying that het people shouldn't be writing slash (one unfortunate drama I've seen on the Internet lately), because hey, what turns you on, what interests you, no matter who you are, THAT'S PART OF YOUR SEXUAL AND EMOTIONAL IDENTITY TOO and I'm all for it.
But, for fuck's sake, if you're going to write slash, you don't get to do that and then say that real life homosexuality is immoral (yep, seen this one in fandom -- and yes, I'm looking at you, Harry Potter fandom) without there being repercussions in the sense of community disapproval.
You also might want to consider that going to a Gay Pride parade just to ogle same-sex couples kissing and not because the parade is fun or important or meaningful AND BRAGGING ABOUT IT, is also a bit outre (yep, seen this one in fandom recently too).
You might also want to take a step back from calling every random celebrity queer couple heroes for being out in places where it's largely safe to be out. I'm not saying it's not brave -- it's hard to be famous and gay and people still get bashed even in places like New York City. But, people have given up their lives in this struggle, and for those of us in the struggle, even if we're pretty privileged and haven't had to do the scary stuff (and for the record, I have been a target of anti-gay violence, harassment and rape threats; I've sat in the ER with friends who have been bashed) -- it's creepy when you call us heroes because you like watching us kiss/hold hands/fuck (yep, seen this one in fandom recently, and yeah, I'm looking at you Torchwood fandom). I am not a hero for turning you on, and neither in John Barrowman. Got it? Good.
Now, while we're at it, you might also wish to remember that while your fictional queer people may be posable dolls, real-life queer people aren't. Think fucking twice about asking people to kiss for your amusement, even if they've been perfectly willing to do it before because the gay people who aren't targets of that moment, who are sitting there in that room with you? It can make us feel like shit, because wow, wouldn't it be nice if you were as interested in our stories as our flesh? (And yes, seen this in fandom recently. Seen it at cons. Seen it towards celebrities, seen it towards cosplayers, seen people not get the difference between choosing to do something for one's own amusement as opposed to an audience. Had this shit directed at me, even by people I consider friends. NOT COOL, PEOPLE.)
And tangentally related to the above? Don't ask couples who the top is. Seriously. Don't. Fuck you. (and to continue on a theme, seen it in fandom, seen it directed at celebs, seen it directed at fans, had it directed at me -- why is it so hard to understand that just because someone will seemingly talk about anything you don't have a right to know anything you want? Also the simplification of gay sexuality into role a or role b is really fucking rude).
Now, you don't like slash? It's not your genre? It doesn't turn you on? THAT'S FINE and you're not being homophobic. The problems always start after that -- and those problems? Yeah, sometimes that is homophobia in action. Here's some shit you might want to think twice about doing:
- When you list stuff you don't like in fiction, try not to bookend references to homosexuality with things like horror, incest, rape, etc. Because that? That sure looks homophobic. (Hey fandom, this one happened YESTERDAY).
- When queer content isn't to your taste? Don't call it icky. (DOES NO ONE HAVE ANY COMMON SENSE? -- also yesterday in fandom)
- And seriously people, when there's a discussion about what categories are and are not included in an awards community or whatever, have enough of a clue to realize that heterosexual content is privileged in the media and that gay content isn't. Having awards for that limited amount of gay content in the mainstream media is not actually "the same sort of discrimination" as awards that purport to be for all content but that actively exclude gay content. (That was also this morning, fandom).
Advice in four words: PRIVILEGE - LOOK IT UP!
Look people, it's pretty simple. Slash is a word for a type of content that pairs two characters of the same gender together (the specificity of whether this means non-canon pairing or includes canon pairing is a debate, but not one relevant to this post), and you can feel pretty much any which way about it, I don't much happen to care -- because the issue here isn't sentiment, it's conduct.
But what slash means is that the content it applies to tells stories about gay people: what they do at work, what they argue about in the kitchen, what they feel in their hearts, and yes, often enough (because holy crap, the Internet is for porn) how they fuck.
The key words in the above sentence, in case you got distracted by the implication of curtains!fic or porn: "stories about gay people."
Gay people are real. We are in your fandom. We are very happy to be here. We are happy to exist in fandom content in a way we don't often in the original material content. We, and the fictional characters whose lives reflect our own to some small degree, get to have full lives here in a way we don't often get from ABC or NBC or CBS or the BBC or WHATEVER at 8pm and sadly for many of us, in a way we don't always get to have with our families or in our workplaces.
So stop treating us like we're fictional. Like that real gay people are inconveniences or blow-up dolls or just some weird, slightly novel, abstract idea.
It's rude, it's ignorant, and most importantly, it's boring. Knock it off.
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Asking Permission
Date: 2009-07-03 04:11 am (UTC)I am on a couple of panels at Polaris (http://www.tcon.ca/polaris/modules/tconguests/) next weekend and would like to raise some of your issues for audience discussion. Do you mind if I do this? The panels are:
Romance vs. Erotica vs. Porn
Description: Sex is part of the human experience, so of course it is written about, but how much you write and in what detail can change the whole flavour of a story. How does one write romance? When have you moved into erotica? At what point is something porn, or "just" porn? Most importantly how does one do all of the above well?
In Character, In Bed
Description: Characterization and setting can't be ignored when writing erotic fanfic. Where do you draw the line and when do you play fast and loose?
Thanks.
Re: Asking Permission
Date: 2009-07-03 04:16 am (UTC)Let us know how it goes!
Re: Asking Permission
Date: 2009-07-03 03:22 pm (UTC)Re: Asking Permission
Date: 2009-07-03 04:22 pm (UTC)I am a novel writer. I write original rather than fanfic; but the same principles apply. My first novel is a het romance; but one of the MC's friends is a bi male who often crossdresses. He had issues with his father; but that was as a result of his coming out rather than the cause of his orientation. (I never get into the "cause"; he just "is".) In the novel, he starts a new relationship with a gay male who has broken up with an abusive boyfriend. As a secondary character, I don't go into a lot of detail; but the two of them have a relationship that is caring and he helps his friend confront issues with the police not taking the violence of the ex seriously. The sex is implied; but not exploited. In fact, all sex in this particular novel is merely implied.
My third novel is a revenge story with BDSM. There is a small amount of gay sex that is relevant to the story line; but not overly dramatic. The story involves primarily dominance and submission and not necessarily sex. The main sex in it is the way the antagonist treats the protagonist before she develops a backbone. Once she develops that backbone, she begins to experiment with her sexuality. That experimentation will be the subject of a sequel. Actually, I guess the "gay scene" could be considered overly dramatic as it is her boyfriend who essentially forces her to "perform" with another woman. I suppose this scene is why your post seems so relevant to me. The character was essentially giving a command performance. No one should have to do that...gay or straight or blue or feathered. You get the picture. We are all human beings and should be treated as such before labels are applied.
About me: I am a predominantly straight, married female. Since I married, I am surrounded by straight people of both sexes. In college, the majority of my friends were gay males because I felt they weren't trying to exploit me like the het males. I did have a really bad relationship with a bi male. I dated him for about three years when I started to suspect he was attracted to children. He was always very good with kids; but something (I'm still not sure what) made me think there was something more to it. I had no proof so I could not go to the police about it. I quit dating him. A few months later I got a phone call from the police stating that I was under suspicion of being a child molester. (For the record, my preference has been *older* men.) It turns out my ex is a child molester who was telling the boys that if they didn't want him (a guy), they could have me. It took a hell of a lot of grilling before the police finally understood that this was done without my knowledge. I relate this incident so you understand when I say that, even after this very disturbing event, I can recognize that my ex is an aberation and not all GBLT people are like him. In my mind, all people are persons first. Even my fictional characters have to provide more than just titillation.
As you can see, I intend to raise your concerns (and expand them to include all labels: race, religion, etc.) as a way to help people see that what they write will be taken more seriously if they present a more balanced and realistic view rather than using stereotypes, especially inaccurate and unrealistic ones.
Sorry, I have rambled on a bit; but I felt it necessary to provide some background.
Re: Asking Permission
Date: 2009-07-14 02:59 pm (UTC)(1) Characters are not realistic: The majority of people (there were only about 15 people at the panel...it was midnight) didn't see a problem with fetishizing homosexuality because *all* characters are fictional and often stereotypical.
(2) Writing about and then condemning homosexuality: One pointed out that people write about murderers and can still condemn them, so felt they should be able to write about homosexuals and condemn them. I was not the moderator on this panel, so could not get floor time to counter that argument. I did; however, refer people to a panel on the myths of tolerance in fandoms. I did not attend that panel, so can't report on what happened there.
Please keep in mind that these are the opinions of those people and not necessarily my own.
Re: Asking Permission
Date: 2009-07-14 03:03 pm (UTC)Because to 1) if that's really what people think about fiction, wow, they are doing it wrong. I really believe stories matter -- original and fanfiction. 2) Bigotry, plain and simple.
Re: Asking Permission
Date: 2009-07-14 05:55 pm (UTC)(1) The written word can be very powerful. The Internet has given to a lot of people who would not previously have had it, the opportunity to disseminate their writing. Unfortunately, we get a lot of bad with a little good. Previously, publishers and editors eliminated most (but not all) of the distasteful stuff, or at least gave us clear warning about what to avoid. Also, until blogs became popular, we rarely had an opportunity to compare the literature to the author's views.
(2) I think I may have inadvertantly misled you on the murderer thing. (I'm still tired from the con and may not have written it well.) The person who made the comment was not equating homosexuals with murderers. Nor do I think she was even making a comparison. I believe she was simply stating another instance where literature could portray someone positively (Dexter?) and still condemn them societally (if that's a word). I don't think she was defending the people who are making the contradictory comments, just giving an example of how it could happen using a morally unambiguous subject (murder).
Re: Asking Permission
Date: 2009-07-14 06:00 pm (UTC)Also, regardless of whether the speaker thought that homosexuality and murder were equivalent, the speaker seems to have made them perhaps inadvertantly equivalent in dialogue. Because systemic bigotry (as opposed to "hey, sterotypes exist for a reason, and sometimes elements of them need to be used in fiction because the author is trying to make this particular point") against me and people like me and having a problem with murder are in fact not both apples.
I'm sorry if I seem angry with you; as I'm not, I'm just frustrated -- with people, with the English language, with fandom....
But I'm not being oversensitive or politically correct to want to be treated as and portrayed as something other than a peep show or a convenient villain.
Re: Asking Permission
Date: 2009-07-14 09:01 pm (UTC)I am sorry you feel that way and I apologize if I did something untoward.
In my defence, nowhere did I say the discussion was about political correctness. In the context of the post, I declared myself to be politically incorrect to demonstrate clearly that I am less concerned about what people think (a form of political correctness) than I am about realism and accuracy in writing.
I am rather hurt that you assumed a veiled attack on my part. I do not hide my attacks behind polite language (that’s part of what makes me politically incorrect). If I wished to attack, I would not veil it. Please do not insinuate actions where none exist. I have no wish to fight with you and, indeed, was trying to further your cause.
For the record, I am offended that you have lumped me in with the Neanderthals who attack you. (My apologies go to the non-attacking Neanderthals.) I had to walk on eggshells growing up and I will not do so again. As it appears I cannot write anything without offending you, perhaps I should just go away. I wish you well.
Re: Asking Permission
Date: 2009-07-14 09:05 pm (UTC)Note I said "can be viewed as" -- I didn't say that was your intent, I don't know you particularly. I noted that that phrase concerns me. All we can do in a text based discussion about language is talk about the nuance of language. We all say shit all the time that isn't the taken the way we intended and sometimes we learn that certain phrases we hear one way get heard by someone else another way and we decide that opinion in valid and change our speech patterns or we don't. That's how dialogue works.
But I didn't tell you you thought the same thing as those people, explicitly said I was trying not to direct my frustration over this whole topic at you, and really tried to be as diplomatic as possible while continuing to have to talk about what matters and distresses me on this issue.
I'm sorry you were offended as that wasn't my intent, but I can't be responsible for your feelings about your personal communication history either.
You remain welcome here if you want to be here, and if you don't that's cool too. My mode is certainly not for everyone.
Re: Asking Permission
Date: 2009-07-14 09:41 pm (UTC)No, you can't be responsible for how I take things. As I get to know your communication style, I will be able to recognize your intentions more readily. That said, it is difficult to be objective on such a heated topic. Even though I am part of a privileged group (primarily het, married female), I get frustrated with it too. I may be in some privileged groups; but certainly not in others...I'd kill (oops, there's that murderer thing) to look like you. ;) (Yes, that was a compliment.)
I think you are an interesting person. I'd like to stay longer and get to know you better. I guess this is just a difficult subject for the "getting to know you" phase of friendship. - Nancy
Re: Asking Permission
Date: 2009-07-14 03:34 pm (UTC)I seriously want to, like, revoke literacy from these people. They're using it for terrible things.
Thanks for the update.
Re: Asking Permission
Date: 2009-07-14 09:03 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-14 04:35 pm (UTC)The characters are not realistic thing was bad enough but then
people write about murderers and can still condemn them, so felt they should be able to write about homosexuals and condemn them
I seriously don't even know where to begin on that one...
no subject
Date: 2009-07-14 04:36 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-14 05:07 pm (UTC)Nor do I want to.
no subject
Date: 2009-07-14 05:08 pm (UTC)Writing about a murderer well, normally the whole point of the writing is NOT to portray them in a positive light surely? Because murder is *wrong* no matter how you look at it. And I know that fiction exists where the murderer treads a fine line between anti-hero and villain but I can't ever say I've ever read any of it (and there's a reason for that.)
Writing about homosexuals and homosexuality in a positive light and then turning around and saying it's wrong is just hypocritical in the extreme.
no subject
Date: 2009-07-14 09:05 pm (UTC)Re: Asking Permission
Date: 2009-07-14 05:15 pm (UTC)Re: Asking Permission
Date: 2009-07-14 09:07 pm (UTC)