in point of fact

[rm]

When you say something anti-gay and I point out the bigotry of your statement, I'm not the one being hateful.

Comments

[sunhawk.livejournal.com]

What a novel concept!!

[lilacsigil.livejournal.com]

But...but...you might be making them feel uncomfortable! And obviously their personal comfort is the highest priority in any situation!

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

Oh c'mon, obviously you're closed minded and aren't taking their perspective into account! Pfft.

[kyburg.livejournal.com]

Werd UP.

[smirnoffmule.livejournal.com]

Oh you big meanie.

[fabricdragon.livejournal.com]

not unless you scream it or throw things... no.
why?

[rm.livejournal.com]

Oh you know, people were being wrong at me on the Internets. I've very little patience for the people that think they are being conciliatory by saying "gay marriage is a hard issue to discuss because both sides are more interested in hatred then a solution."

[laughingacademy.livejournal.com]

"...both sides are more interested in hatred then a solution."

If they consider that conciliatory, I'd hate to see what they consider inflammatory.

[starstealingirl.livejournal.com]

My ex-girlfriend and I used to have a saying about this sort of thing: "How wonderful for you!" As in: "How wonderful for you that I was willing to take time out of my schedule to educate you on that really ignorant thing you said, when it's not really my job to do so, so that you can learn from me and therefore not make more really stupid mistakes later on in life!" If someone says something bigoted and you call them on it, they should thank you for the effort.

So whoever this person is: how wonderful for them!

[upstart-crow.livejournal.com]

Clearly you took the wrong "tone" with them, duh!

[upstart-crow.livejournal.com]

Oh, fuck that noise.

[upstart-crow.livejournal.com]

And clearly that icon is broken. :O

[ex-adarog.livejournal.com]

Funny, I thought Teh Gheys were interested in marriage, and, you know, LURVE.

[/stupid headachey sarcasm]

You are right and they are wrong and I'm tired of people arguing that their childish squick reactions are a fit basis for morality.

[fabricdragon.livejournal.com]

gay marriage is a hard issue to discuss for three reasons, as far as i can tell...... most people hold one or more of these reasons if they oppose it.

1. they dont feel Gay people deserve equal rights under the law
2. they have religious problems with having a marriage between anyone their religion cant marry
3. they think it will affect their religious practices

issue 1 is a problem. it is more common than many people like to think...... but it isnt the ONLY issue (yes its a big one)
issues 2 and 3 are actually DEAL ABLE with, if people would just recognize the problems for what they are, so they can be addressed.

personally? i think they should get the govt out of religion.

make ALL couples who want the govt to recognize them get a "civil union" that covers taxes, legal issues. you know..... stuff that isnt religious.
all
het/gay/whatever

then if your religion mandates it. you go get married in a church, which is recognized by your church, and has NO legal standing.

but thats just me.

[rm.livejournal.com]

3. drives me crazy because it's SO ignorance driven. the law didn't make the Catholic church marry my Catholic father to my Jewish mother. Why would this be any different?

The fear of gay people being different and intrusive (I feel like the AIDS crisis convinced large swathes of the population that homosexuality itself is a virus, eager to insert itself into and overwriting their lives) is pervasive, in part, because, I feel like no one takes a damn civics class in school anymore. They don't know what laws means, they don't know what's in the constitution and they don't bloody care.

Also, if all legal marriage gets renamed to "civil unions" we still have the "gays are taking marriage away from us" argument.

[fabricdragon.livejournal.com]

oh i cant argue most of it... but i do know that "marriage" is a word with *religious* meaning to most people...most people do not think of it as civil law at all....
so by definition as soon as you say "marriage" you are talking religion to most folks.
hence the furor.

also? a few events that are.. well lets call them what they are. stupid. have been used to scare the churches half to death.

ONE gay couple sues a church that wont let them marry in teh actual church building (they were talking about renting the hall and gazebo, and etc, and the churhc fellow was showing them around and basiclaly said "full access to anything except the actual church building interior"
they sued
the church lost the property.. had to sell it to pay the fine
this is in EVERY single church bulleten about gay marriage i have ever seen.

[rm.livejournal.com]

Yes, I know about that case (it's relatively local). The gazebo is on a public beach and a designated historic location that receives funds for upkeep of the gazebo from the state because of its historic designation. The church was in the legal wrong in an admittedly complex situation.

Also, I was raised in two religions (minimum, long story), and I never, ever had an understanding that marriage is a strictly religious event. If it was, how could a person get married at City Hall or need a license?

[bodlon.livejournal.com]

I wish I could say this was not news. AND YET.

[fabricdragon.livejournal.com]

nod
well as for ME i figure all i need to know is
1. am i invited
2. where is your gift registry
oh, and 3. whats the dress code

the re prints of the case do NOT talk about the state land... just the "gay people can legally demand to be married in YOUR church" which is scary if you dont think its in keeping with your religion.

the issue is..... Marriage is a DEEPLY religious event in many religions. its a sacrament equivalent to Holy Orders in the Catholic Church, for instance... one of the 7 Sacraments. not so much in other religions.....
likewise in most of the born again groups....

the CIVIL side of marriage is the whole license and justice of the peace.

the confusion is we use the same word for both......and frankly i am of the opinion that the civil govt and religious lfe got too close for comfort a while ago on this topic.

but like it or not. marriage is a religious sacrement, a deeply religious binding of two people in many religions.... and i thinnk as long as we use that word for the civil and religious acts.... we are gonna have trouble

[rm.livejournal.com]

I refuse to use a different word for it because I'm gay. Are gay people who can get married in their churches and synagogues going to be not allowed to call it that?

I agree with you, dividing this out for everyone would be best, but I can't imagine that happening. Of course, at this point, I can't imagine anything good coming of this mess ever.

Approximately half of America would rather people like me be dead. That's the fact I hate myself for not being able to get used to.

[nonsecateur.livejournal.com]

(Hi- I journal hopped here more or less at random!)

Oh, they know. It's a cynical 'gotcha!'. They've noticed that pro equality folks tend to be hot on free speech and tolerance, and it's an attempt to use that against the very people promoting equal rights. Because we're not supportive of the right to discriminate/ intimidate/ persecute, they're being oppressed and we're awful, cruel hypocrites.

[rm.livejournal.com]

Hi! And ayup, that's why I'm having a Big Gay Sulk because people are being Wrong on the Internet again.

[dsmoen.livejournal.com]

I refuse to use a different word for it because I'm gay.

I agree, and I'm straight. I think the word "marriage" has been sullied by the bigots who don't want to let gays in love share the word.

Let THEM use other words for their ceremony: sealing for the Mormons, holy matrimony for them that cares, etc.

[aviv-b.livejournal.com]

I'd never heard of the Gazebo case. What a crock. Hey if you want to get married in my synagogue (or they may call it a commitment ceremony, you got me), and you're Jewish and gay and your partner is Jewish and gay then fine. If my Jewish brother wanted to marry his Catholic wife in my synagogue, no dice.

No one can tell a religious body who to marry. Period. I'm actually in favor of having anything done by the state be a civil union (so you get a civil union license rather than a marriage license). You want a marriage - then you have it done by your church, synagogue, whatever.

As for the Catholic church, I lost all respect for them when they persisted in covering up child rape. Sorry, anyone who does that has NO MORAL AUTHORITY to tell anyone anything.

And don't get me started on what the Mormons did in California with their front group.

I wonder how they'd like it if states started passing laws forbiding any who thinks that humans came to earth from another planet from getting married.

[nonsecateur.livejournal.com]

Almost as bad are the earnest pro-equality people who fall for it, and then squirm themselves into knots about how they're "being intolerant themselves!" and oh gosh, how awful of them, and the poor homophobes have a right to be heard!

Trying to deny civil rights and trying to stop other people denying civil rights? Not. The. Same. Thing.