cruise: have a plan

[rm]

So we utterly loved the cruise. It was exactly what we needed, and we had really remarkable luck in choosing the right excursions and trips (both with the cruise line and on our own). The food was better than I was led to expect; the gluten-free stuff went reasonably well; and we had some great spa treatments. I attempted to snorkel for the first time, and wasn't very successful at it, but did, thanks to Patty's reassurances and help see some awesome fish. She did more advanced stuff and even saw a sea-turtle. I'll probably explain more of what our actual vacation was like in a future post as we start to post pictures. Right now, I sort of want to talk about cruise strategy if you're, well, people like us.

Cruises are extraordinarily heteronormative. (More on that later).
Cruises are also extraordinarily white (digression: I will note that the PoC on the cruise did tend to be closer to our ages -- we were some of the youngest people on the boat not traveling with other family, and we were asked often why we were (or if we were) comfortable with that. I spent a lot of time mentioning my age, because people tend to assume I'm much younger than I am).

Meanwhile, many Caribbean destinations are much more diverse and/or mostly Places of Color, and some of them are quite poor (Turks & Caicos and the Dominican Republic being the two that caused issues as described below).

And then you eat dinner with strangers in the cruise ship dining room....

I really would have thought that the combination of us being from NYC, obviously (I think) queer, and my often wearing a suit in the dining room would give people the idea that maybe we are "liberals" and they shouldn't ask our opinions on things like poverty, Muslims and the decreasing rates of reproduction by white people with the expectation that we would confirm their fears and bigotry.

Okay, well, ACTUALLY, I REALLY would have thought that common decency and sense would prevent people from holding the opinions they did in the first place, but that notion got shot down REALLY fast.

Because I would be wrong. SO WRONG.

So here's my advice to you if you go on a cruise:

Have a plan.

Are you going to challenge this stuff or do the confused thing so people either have to say something awful or back down? Because seriously, to me going to these beautiful places with these varying economies and social situations was to me a call to action that was an entirely appropriate part of my vacation, not some horrible inconvenience, as many people at dinner seemed to indicate. People want these trips, but they also don't want to have to see poverty! We were in Semana in the Dominican Republic (which we loved, btw, although few other people on the cruise did) about five days before the Haiti earthquake which transpired when we were about 90 miles away -- I actually saw it on CNN a couple of hours later when we were passing between it and Cuba).

Additionally, if you're gay, think about how you're going to introduce yourselves (another couple introduced themselves as "I'm so-and-so and this is my partner so-and-so" -- I find the level of possession in that discussion to be awkward, I also don't feel like heterosexual couples have to do that stuff -- it's obvious, right? -- so why should we?). I personally found it hard to know if we were not being out enough, or if we were being awesome and normalizing by assuming people were smart enough to get it. I'm still not sure, and I'll take this moment to note this is one of those "if you're not gay, you haven't had this experience and it's hard to describe to you" moments. Would you want to have to think about these things in your vacation? You would not. (And yes, I mention this so as to refer back to it later when I finally weigh-in on the latest fandom/slash/queer fethishization discussion/fuckery).

But, anyway. We loved it and are planning to do an eleven day one to the windward islands in 2011.

Comments

[liminalia.livejournal.com]

What do you mean by "I find the level of possession in that discussion to be awkward"? You feel introducing Patty as your partner is too possessive?

I'm not intending to invalidate your feelings, but when I was married to a guy I did say, "This is my husband, D" all the time at parties. I think straight people do tend to say "This is my husband/fiance/girlfriend", if for no other reason than to convey which marital status they're in.

[zestfive.livejournal.com]

Nah, I think she means that with a straight couple you could say "This is Tom" and people would assume your relationship and with a gay couple if you say "This is Tom" it's an entirely different experience. You need to speak to that relationship which ends up defaulting to something much more possessive.

At least that's what I got out of it.

And I look forward to hearing more about your experience as it relates to this.

[tod-hollykim.livejournal.com]

Uh. Well, here in this apartment, my roommate, a PoC, Eppie, has been on a few cruises. Where as, I, as pale as my Welsh & Finnish ancestors, have not been on a boat bigger than a fishing boat on a sunset cruise from Barnegat Bay into the inlet, out in the ocean and back.

Granted it was fun being in the inlet with the tide change- weeeeee! water rollercoaster!-, but that is it.

Actually, that's sort of not really all that true. I've been on bigger boats, but they were docked and moved nowhere.

[reannon.livejournal.com]

I've never been on a cruise; I had no idea it was such a conservative environment. :(

On one thing, though: heterosexual couples do introduce themselves that way. "Hi, I'm Elizabeth Donald and this is my husband, No Longer." Or vice versa. The possession thing is a bit awkward, and I never thought about it before, but upon reflection, just about all couples do introduce themselves this way, as though setting "rules" for interaction from the meeting.

It sucks that you had to deal with stupidity on your vacation. :/

[rm.livejournal.com]

We were on a boat with about 1800 guests. Maybe 20 were PoC at a guess. This may no be typical, but woah, took us aback.

[rm.livejournal.com]

Just like I don't think people should be defined, by default, by their jobs, I don't think people should be defined by their relationships. Because I'm loud and talky, I tend to be particularly sensitive about introducing people this way, because they are not accessories but people with their own deals regardless of how they are connected to whom.

It doesn't bug me when other people do it, but I have a feeling it can be a bit toe-steppy for some people, and it's not something I want to do accidentally.

[lefaym.livejournal.com]

On the flip side of that though, I've had people assume that my partner was my husband, even though I'd never said any such thing (and indeed, niether of us have any desire to get married) -- which is, I think a HUGE indicator of heterosexual privilege (people automatically assume that your relationship is the type of relationship they consider most "valid") -- and it's a huge reason why marriage equality is important, even if I (and no doubt many others) would personally rather do away with the legal institution of marriage altogether.

[liminalia.livejournal.com]

Huh. I never thought about it like that. (Which is why I love reading your blog, this happens all the time.) :)

[bare-bear.livejournal.com]

Welcome back!

I admire you two for going snorkelling. I don't think I'd handle that very well, myself. Maybe if it was just flittering around at the surface, I might be fine, but nothing deeper. I'm from the middle of Canada, We Don't Do That. :)

[rm.livejournal.com]

OMG, EVERYONE ON OUR CRUISE WAS CANADIAN.

Also, I only did it in water I could stand in and didn't have success with the breathing apparatus.

[wordkink.livejournal.com]

I'm so glad that you mentioned the necessity of having plan. My wife and I are going on our first cruise in March (six days from San Diego to Cabo and back), thanks to my in-laws, and the idea of having to answer questions about our relationship is something I've been wondering about. To add to that I'm Mexican and so going on a cruise of all things to see a place that I'm actually -from- will only add to the surreal nature of things I'm sure. What were some of the issues that you felt it was most helpful to be ready to deal with? I mean, were people truly -that- strange about things?

[afterthree.livejournal.com]

Lol, you are not the first person I know to exclaim such a thing. Apparently Canadians Like To Cruise. Perhaps because we are so cold/land-locked?

[rm.livejournal.com]

We actually got no questions about our relationship that weren't friendly, but I did feel people were blind to it at times if we didn't mention it (even if I kissed her on the lips) and people often asked if we were sisters (when I think they wanted to ask if we were gay).

Since you're Mexican, I'm guessing your going to be asked for expertise you may or may not have at dinner a lot.

Also, if your cruise is like ours expect a lot of "those people need to keep their country cleaner" bullshit.

[jnanacandra.livejournal.com]

I'd be interested in hearing how you did respond to the awful comments, if you did choose to do so. One of my biggest problems dealing with that sort of thing is that I'm so shocked by the comment that I can't think of anything to say in the moment, and of course it's never "appropriate" to bring it up again later.

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

I think "this is my husband, Mr Foxy (well, his first name, obvs)", is something I've probably said if I'm already talking to someone and he walks up. If we're both meeting people at the same time we just use our first names.

There's all that context there, though... like, who are you talking to and have they been mentioning their partner in some fashion, so you introduce yours so they know it's not your brother you're having dinner with, or whatever. Or I'd refer to him as my husband if mentioning him while he's not there, since the person doesn't know him personally by name yet.

I don't think "my partner" sounds possessive, but I'm not the partner!

[tod-hollykim.livejournal.com]

And another place Canadians seem to like is south Jersey. I grew up on Long Beach Island. We had a ton of Canadians come down there for summer vacation. Not as many as a littler south like Cape May and that. But a lot.

[bare-bear.livejournal.com]

I'm not entirely surprised that there were so many Canadians there, especially if they were middle-aged and older. The cold can get to be a bit much after a while, especially if you've got bad joints (as my Grandma constantly reminds us). My own province typically has an average of -25 degrees celcius this time of year, and February is worse. (That's when we get closer to the -40's and even -50's!)

However, I'm sorry if the Canadians were the ones being asshats. :( I'd like to think we act a little better abroad, but that's not always true.

Still...*waves little Canadian flag* :)

[rm.livejournal.com]

We had bad behavior from Canadians, Americans and Brits. We also met LOVELY people from all three nations. There were also some Dutch girls wearing matching t-shirts that said "I'M IN MIAMI BITCH" in the Lido that I wanted to strangle.

[bare-bear.livejournal.com]

I hate any type of clothes that swear. That and swearing loudly in public. It's just so...disrespectful, and that's probably from my Dad practically beating us if we were that rude in public. Seriously, I feel like a disapproving old hag sometimes. I would probably have pinchy lips and be muttering about "kids have no respect these days" if I saw those shirts. *is 28 going on 79*

[wordkink.livejournal.com]

That's good to hear at least. Since my wife has red hair, I think the question of our being related will be a non-issue but I'm now sort of looking forward to whatever bizarre explanations people will come up with for our being together.

What I'm really expecting is that people will assume I'm not Mexican since my English is entirely unaccented and that I will be handed opportunities to pass as a "better" minority by agreeing with them on how "quaint" or "backward" everything can be.

[nicoli-dominn.livejournal.com]

If it makes you feel any better (which it probably won't, but this will probably make you laugh anyway), back when I was dating Anna, people would stop us in public and ask if we were sisters ALL THE TIME. (It's pretty awkward to think of your sexual and romantic partner as your sibling in ANY context, unless you happen to get off on it. Which we didn't.)

I hurt for you when I read this entry. It reminds me of pretty much any time I have to sit around my parents and their close friends; any time any one of them says anything that smacks of bigotry and intolerance, I'm apparently supposed to keep my mouth shut about it - calling them on their bullshit would offend them, and they're clearly more important. (?) One New Year's Eve after the tsunami hit southeast Asia, my parents had a couple over from our church. The wife happened to be extremely uh...I don't want to say "stupid," but let's go with "narrow-minded." She actually said, and I quote: "I think the tsunami was an act of God against the Muslims."

All I remember was my jaw dropping. I think I calmly tried to explain to her that Muslims worship the same God she does, and that she was being a bigoted jerk (only I think I said it slightly more nicely than that), and the next morning, BOY did I hear it from my mother! My mother agreed with me, but it still apparently wasn't okay for me to put that jerk in her place even when she deserved it. Yup, you can't go around undermining people's sense of privilege. It makes them sad and it ruffles their pretty feathers.

[nicoli-dominn.livejournal.com]

...people often asked if we were sisters (when I think they wanted to ask if we were gay).

Oh, I guess that makes my anecdote less funny. Anna and I at least thought it was at the time, and just laughed and raised our eyebrows at whomever asked. It just never occurred to me at the time that perhaps the question about our relationship was masking an underlying curiosity about the nature of our sexuality.

[chaos-by-design.livejournal.com]

I'm impressed that you were able to enjoy it while having to deal with so much bigotry and privilege.

[heron61.livejournal.com]

Was your ship the Nordam? If so, you were on the same ship as my parents. That's very odd indeed. In any case, I'm glad you had a lovely time despite scary conservatives. From what I've heard, one of the issues is that many people who go on cruises are both old & upper middle class or wealthier, which selects well for a wide selection of deeply scary attitudes.

[rm.livejournal.com]

We were totally on the same ship as your parents.