cruise: have a plan

[rm]

So we utterly loved the cruise. It was exactly what we needed, and we had really remarkable luck in choosing the right excursions and trips (both with the cruise line and on our own). The food was better than I was led to expect; the gluten-free stuff went reasonably well; and we had some great spa treatments. I attempted to snorkel for the first time, and wasn't very successful at it, but did, thanks to Patty's reassurances and help see some awesome fish. She did more advanced stuff and even saw a sea-turtle. I'll probably explain more of what our actual vacation was like in a future post as we start to post pictures. Right now, I sort of want to talk about cruise strategy if you're, well, people like us.

Cruises are extraordinarily heteronormative. (More on that later).
Cruises are also extraordinarily white (digression: I will note that the PoC on the cruise did tend to be closer to our ages -- we were some of the youngest people on the boat not traveling with other family, and we were asked often why we were (or if we were) comfortable with that. I spent a lot of time mentioning my age, because people tend to assume I'm much younger than I am).

Meanwhile, many Caribbean destinations are much more diverse and/or mostly Places of Color, and some of them are quite poor (Turks & Caicos and the Dominican Republic being the two that caused issues as described below).

And then you eat dinner with strangers in the cruise ship dining room....

I really would have thought that the combination of us being from NYC, obviously (I think) queer, and my often wearing a suit in the dining room would give people the idea that maybe we are "liberals" and they shouldn't ask our opinions on things like poverty, Muslims and the decreasing rates of reproduction by white people with the expectation that we would confirm their fears and bigotry.

Okay, well, ACTUALLY, I REALLY would have thought that common decency and sense would prevent people from holding the opinions they did in the first place, but that notion got shot down REALLY fast.

Because I would be wrong. SO WRONG.

So here's my advice to you if you go on a cruise:

Have a plan.

Are you going to challenge this stuff or do the confused thing so people either have to say something awful or back down? Because seriously, to me going to these beautiful places with these varying economies and social situations was to me a call to action that was an entirely appropriate part of my vacation, not some horrible inconvenience, as many people at dinner seemed to indicate. People want these trips, but they also don't want to have to see poverty! We were in Semana in the Dominican Republic (which we loved, btw, although few other people on the cruise did) about five days before the Haiti earthquake which transpired when we were about 90 miles away -- I actually saw it on CNN a couple of hours later when we were passing between it and Cuba).

Additionally, if you're gay, think about how you're going to introduce yourselves (another couple introduced themselves as "I'm so-and-so and this is my partner so-and-so" -- I find the level of possession in that discussion to be awkward, I also don't feel like heterosexual couples have to do that stuff -- it's obvious, right? -- so why should we?). I personally found it hard to know if we were not being out enough, or if we were being awesome and normalizing by assuming people were smart enough to get it. I'm still not sure, and I'll take this moment to note this is one of those "if you're not gay, you haven't had this experience and it's hard to describe to you" moments. Would you want to have to think about these things in your vacation? You would not. (And yes, I mention this so as to refer back to it later when I finally weigh-in on the latest fandom/slash/queer fethishization discussion/fuckery).

But, anyway. We loved it and are planning to do an eleven day one to the windward islands in 2011.

Comments

[liminalia.livejournal.com]

What do you mean by "I find the level of possession in that discussion to be awkward"? You feel introducing Patty as your partner is too possessive?

I'm not intending to invalidate your feelings, but when I was married to a guy I did say, "This is my husband, D" all the time at parties. I think straight people do tend to say "This is my husband/fiance/girlfriend", if for no other reason than to convey which marital status they're in.

[zestfive.livejournal.com]

Nah, I think she means that with a straight couple you could say "This is Tom" and people would assume your relationship and with a gay couple if you say "This is Tom" it's an entirely different experience. You need to speak to that relationship which ends up defaulting to something much more possessive.

At least that's what I got out of it.

And I look forward to hearing more about your experience as it relates to this.

[rm.livejournal.com]

Just like I don't think people should be defined, by default, by their jobs, I don't think people should be defined by their relationships. Because I'm loud and talky, I tend to be particularly sensitive about introducing people this way, because they are not accessories but people with their own deals regardless of how they are connected to whom.

It doesn't bug me when other people do it, but I have a feeling it can be a bit toe-steppy for some people, and it's not something I want to do accidentally.

[tod-hollykim.livejournal.com]

Uh. Well, here in this apartment, my roommate, a PoC, Eppie, has been on a few cruises. Where as, I, as pale as my Welsh & Finnish ancestors, have not been on a boat bigger than a fishing boat on a sunset cruise from Barnegat Bay into the inlet, out in the ocean and back.

Granted it was fun being in the inlet with the tide change- weeeeee! water rollercoaster!-, but that is it.

Actually, that's sort of not really all that true. I've been on bigger boats, but they were docked and moved nowhere.

[rm.livejournal.com]

We were on a boat with about 1800 guests. Maybe 20 were PoC at a guess. This may no be typical, but woah, took us aback.

[reannon.livejournal.com]

I've never been on a cruise; I had no idea it was such a conservative environment. :(

On one thing, though: heterosexual couples do introduce themselves that way. "Hi, I'm Elizabeth Donald and this is my husband, No Longer." Or vice versa. The possession thing is a bit awkward, and I never thought about it before, but upon reflection, just about all couples do introduce themselves this way, as though setting "rules" for interaction from the meeting.

It sucks that you had to deal with stupidity on your vacation. :/

[lefaym.livejournal.com]

On the flip side of that though, I've had people assume that my partner was my husband, even though I'd never said any such thing (and indeed, niether of us have any desire to get married) -- which is, I think a HUGE indicator of heterosexual privilege (people automatically assume that your relationship is the type of relationship they consider most "valid") -- and it's a huge reason why marriage equality is important, even if I (and no doubt many others) would personally rather do away with the legal institution of marriage altogether.

[bare-bear.livejournal.com]

Welcome back!

I admire you two for going snorkelling. I don't think I'd handle that very well, myself. Maybe if it was just flittering around at the surface, I might be fine, but nothing deeper. I'm from the middle of Canada, We Don't Do That. :)

[rm.livejournal.com]

OMG, EVERYONE ON OUR CRUISE WAS CANADIAN.

Also, I only did it in water I could stand in and didn't have success with the breathing apparatus.

[wordkink.livejournal.com]

I'm so glad that you mentioned the necessity of having plan. My wife and I are going on our first cruise in March (six days from San Diego to Cabo and back), thanks to my in-laws, and the idea of having to answer questions about our relationship is something I've been wondering about. To add to that I'm Mexican and so going on a cruise of all things to see a place that I'm actually -from- will only add to the surreal nature of things I'm sure. What were some of the issues that you felt it was most helpful to be ready to deal with? I mean, were people truly -that- strange about things?

[rm.livejournal.com]

We actually got no questions about our relationship that weren't friendly, but I did feel people were blind to it at times if we didn't mention it (even if I kissed her on the lips) and people often asked if we were sisters (when I think they wanted to ask if we were gay).

Since you're Mexican, I'm guessing your going to be asked for expertise you may or may not have at dinner a lot.

Also, if your cruise is like ours expect a lot of "those people need to keep their country cleaner" bullshit.

[jnanacandra.livejournal.com]

I'd be interested in hearing how you did respond to the awful comments, if you did choose to do so. One of my biggest problems dealing with that sort of thing is that I'm so shocked by the comment that I can't think of anything to say in the moment, and of course it's never "appropriate" to bring it up again later.

[nicoli-dominn.livejournal.com]

If it makes you feel any better (which it probably won't, but this will probably make you laugh anyway), back when I was dating Anna, people would stop us in public and ask if we were sisters ALL THE TIME. (It's pretty awkward to think of your sexual and romantic partner as your sibling in ANY context, unless you happen to get off on it. Which we didn't.)

I hurt for you when I read this entry. It reminds me of pretty much any time I have to sit around my parents and their close friends; any time any one of them says anything that smacks of bigotry and intolerance, I'm apparently supposed to keep my mouth shut about it - calling them on their bullshit would offend them, and they're clearly more important. (?) One New Year's Eve after the tsunami hit southeast Asia, my parents had a couple over from our church. The wife happened to be extremely uh...I don't want to say "stupid," but let's go with "narrow-minded." She actually said, and I quote: "I think the tsunami was an act of God against the Muslims."

All I remember was my jaw dropping. I think I calmly tried to explain to her that Muslims worship the same God she does, and that she was being a bigoted jerk (only I think I said it slightly more nicely than that), and the next morning, BOY did I hear it from my mother! My mother agreed with me, but it still apparently wasn't okay for me to put that jerk in her place even when she deserved it. Yup, you can't go around undermining people's sense of privilege. It makes them sad and it ruffles their pretty feathers.

[chaos-by-design.livejournal.com]

I'm impressed that you were able to enjoy it while having to deal with so much bigotry and privilege.

[heron61.livejournal.com]

Was your ship the Nordam? If so, you were on the same ship as my parents. That's very odd indeed. In any case, I'm glad you had a lovely time despite scary conservatives. From what I've heard, one of the issues is that many people who go on cruises are both old & upper middle class or wealthier, which selects well for a wide selection of deeply scary attitudes.

[rm.livejournal.com]

We were totally on the same ship as your parents.

[lawsontl.livejournal.com]

I think rudeness/obliviousness spans belief structures. As a Libertarian, I find myself on the receiving end from both extremes. Didn't these people learn that you don't talk politics or religion in polite (meaning, people you don't know very well) company?

I am thrilled you had

[newwaytowrite.livejournal.com]

a great get away as I get exhausted just following all the things you manage to do in one day. Comparatively, I am a total three toed sloth that other three toed sloths call lazy.

In my cruise experience (but not exclusively) I got plenty of comments about my "bravery" being a girl traveling alone and much ado was made about my age. You would think I couldn't tie my shoe laces.

One doesn't have to go far to see how much the dominant culture don't like poverty spoiling their good times. Just as in the 88 Winter Olympic Game in Calgary the 2010 Winter Games the sex workers, homeless and drug addicted folks were or will be rounded up either put in jail or forced into shelters against their wills. I mean it is appalling. They guise as take them off the street and saving their lives because they could freeze to death. How come they didn't care about that in the years leading up to the 2010 Olympics?

Welcome back.

[laughingacademy.livejournal.com]

Welcome home! Glad you and Patty had fun.

Heh, I have Canadian relatives who do the cruise thing; I'll have to ask then about it the next time we talk.

Have you heard anything about a trolling campaign against AO3?

[rm.livejournal.com]

No.... did hear about the one against Dreamwidth. Is there one against A03?

[delchi.livejournal.com]

It's funny you mention it ... because in the few and far between times that I have been in a relationship ( you know what I mean ) I have always felt uncomfortable with the introduction business. I always felt uncomfortable with the " ... and this is my girlfriend $name " end of things. I felt uncomfortable for the exact reason you mentioned - it created an air of property and/or ownership. It wasn't until later when I was dating within the world of BDSM ( again, you recall ) and property/ownership was part of the culture ( voluntarily so ) that I ever felt comfortable speaking that way (in fact , she insisted on it). After I left that world everything went back to the old way of feeling uncomfortable about it.

To this day , even though I am no longer dating, I am still uncomfortable in introduction situations.

[(Anonymous)]

In my college French class when we were in the textbook chapter that introduced relationship nouns (e.g. father, grandmother, friend, wife), my professor explained that learning the words for boy/girlfriend and husband/wife were insufficient and un-French. She then proceeded to teach us half a dozen words, including partner, mate, companion, lover and mistress, followed by half dozen French pet names.

[don-negro.livejournal.com]

I just got back from 3 weeks in Texas, and things have changed. People I have known for decades to be thoughtful and sober observers of humanity are saying really, *really* scary shit all of a sudden, and not sotto voce, either.

Something very nasty is brewing out there. My folks have spent most of my lifetime living in Tom Delay's and Ron Paul's district, and I've never seen anything like it. It bothers me all the more because I can't get a good cui bono fix on it. Every scenario I can come up with has far too little payoff for the risk inherent with the amount of destruction involved.

All of which is to say, you're right to be shocked and to feel unprepared. Even a year ago, you probably wouldn't have encountered such a thing.

[abnormal-apathy.livejournal.com]

"People want these trips, but they also don't want to have to see poverty!"

This is exactly what led to the argument in Jamaica between Dane and I, and ultimately why I ended up leaving early. I do see the poverty. I expect to see it because when I travel, I prefer to immerse myself in the culture. It's not the poverty that bothered me, it was the idea that I was doing something WRONG by refusing to barter any lower than a few dollars less than the asking price on things. When I paid $12 for a bracelet that was $15 at full price, and he paid $5, I was suddenly in the wrong. It made no sense, though it was coming from a wealthy white boy who hasn't had to pay for anything with his own money in his life. So maybe that should've told me something sooner.

[dreamsrundeep.livejournal.com]

Have you ever been on an Olivia Cruise? My wife and I went on one (with about 5 friends!) for our honeymoon. It was wonderful!

[ladyaelfwynn.livejournal.com]

Glad you're back; missed your posts whilst you were away.

I think a lot depends on the cruise line you go with. My folks have done some cruising and go with one of the Norse lines but then they kind of blend in with the older (just retired early 60s) more conservative than not, middle class.

I haven't been abroad since 1997 (Cancun) and prefer to immerse myself in the culture. I hated Cancun because it was too much of what I got here in the States and I wanted more local color. (We won airfare through my husband's work; we didn't have a choice of where we were going.)

I much prefer San Juan, PR because everything is cheek by jowl and you can find places to stay in neighborhoods and eat in local restaurants and shop with the local inhabitants.

Glad you had a nice time! Welcome back!

[liamstliam.livejournal.com]

I just wandered in from a coupel of freinds' journals.

Give some thought to an Alaska curise, especially the one out of San Frencisco (we spent a week there after the cruise).

Different dynamic and wicked cool.

[sociallyawkrd.livejournal.com]

Ahh yes the benefit of traveling with Tom, our son, his parents and sister were no crazy dining room companions except at breakfast when I well set some peeps straight!

Interestingly we never have run into issues on tours, just the cruises.

[bodlon.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure I'm surprised to hear about a lot of the things you describe encountering socially, though I'm speaking less from experience than I am class stereotypes. Which, you know, is problematic in itself. Hm.

But hey! Sea turtle!

[billijean.livejournal.com]

I went on a similar cruise when I was 23 and I was shocked by some of the conversation in the dining room. I couldn't believe that people would speak their racist crap so openly and to total strangers. I ended up skipping most of the dining room meals just to avoid it.

I'm glad though that you enjoyed your trip. :)