White Collar, 1.3 & 1.4

[rm]

With Patty away you get White Collar reaction posts instead of Buffy & Angel reaction posts.



So, I thought episode 3 was spectacular: emotional, weird, very New York (very _my_ New York in a lot of ways), the weird trust and control issues that made everyone tell me I had to watching this.

Episode 1.4 struck me as a lot weaker, but it was still funny (because Moz & the stolen limo & the opera and the dumplings & the champagne? Made of win).

The clothes remain a constant level of epic hotness.

And Peter is such a weird guy. Actually, he's not, Peter's very ordinary, but I'm taken by how much we see some sort of real, sincere insecurity form him in strange little ways. For a show that has no structural nuance to speak of, there's a lot of nuance in the characters.

El: still awesome.

Clothes: Becoming even more awesome.

Neal: Has fandom finally found a character that they can write as a cliched woobie and actually be sorta right? Jesus does this guy want approval or what? I really hope he gets shot at some point. We need guilty/worried!Peter and wounded/freaked-out!Neal like NOW.

Peter: Lonely and awkward. Also totally in command of himself. Except when he forgets he shouldn't let people know he's lonely and awkward.

Neal's living situation: they do a remarkable job of making that gorgeous space look solitary and lonely. I like it.

The Kate plotline: I still don't care.

"He's in the car with the windows cracked." -- AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH. Not only is it a great line, but it's a bit of personal hilarity to me because of a wacked out incident with a couple of guys from fencing a few years back.

One of the things that's really interesting to me is looking at exactly all the stuff that Torchwood fen in particular are responding to in this show. There's a lot of ways that the Peter/Neal dynamic is a lot like the Jack/Ianto dynamic, except the charming con artist is the guy without the power (yeah, yeah, eventhough both guys are con artists in their way in both shows) and the dude with all the details and the scut work and the attention to rules is the guy with the power on White Collar. Also, cute suits and a lot of coffee talk. The fact that El sorta serves as both Gwen (visually, and her relationship with Peter and her weird sexy maternalness with Neal) and Rhys (not on the team, but sure helping to get the job done) just makes the whole thing more "oh, hey, fandom, I get it." Will Kate be John Hart? Who's the poodle? Sorry, I'll shut up now.

Look, I think White Collar is pretty good. I had a scorching hot sex dream about it last night, after all (yes, I will write this fic, because goddamn). But when I'm not being bemused by this show (which, I agree with cruentum has too many clean edges for me to really be into it thus far), mostly I'm thinking "wow, large swathes of Torchwood fandom has really decided that they need this show."

And I don't. Which is making the bar a little higher. But you're all right, it has an undefinable something and it's hard not to keep watching and hoping the damn thing will decide to deliver.

I also have to say I am amazed this show got bought. I totally get how it got picked-up from the pilot, but before there was tape, this was a very hard sell.

Comments

[therealycats.livejournal.com]

(I saw the "Will Kate be John" bit and got really confused and wondered when the Gosselins came into this for a second)

Like I said, the show does start off slow, but it will get better, and Peter and Neal's relationship gets much stronger. When I first saw the ads for this show, a few months before it premiered, I thought, "Gee, he's pretty," but I had no real interest in watching it. I watched the pilot, was left feeling a little better about it but not totally convinced, but then Neal kept being charming, he and Peter kept bantering, and Elizabeth and Mozzie grew on me. I don't get the same emotional response from it, so far, that I do with my Whoniverse or Whedonverse shows, but I think it complements the rest of USA's standard buddy cop dramedy shows pretty well.

[redstapler.livejournal.com]

I also have to say I am amazed this show got bought.

I think the fact it's on USA may have something to do with it. It never would have made it onto a network, and there really isn't a premium cable channel where it would fit.

USA (and TBS) have these weird quirky "we're not premium, but hey! we've got stuff!" things to them that gets us shows like Psych and Burn Notice. (And god help us, Royal Pains, which I found far too charming for comfort. Stupid Hamptons.)

So between the fact that I'm pretty sure someone at USA had a feeling the "wow, large swathes of Torchwood fandom has really decided that they need this show." thing would happen (IIRC, it premiered not long after CoE), and the fact that the city of New York is probably practically HANDING them money to shoot...

It was an easier sell than you'd think.

Neal's living situation: they do a remarkable job of making that gorgeous space look solitary and lonely. I like it.

Jeff Eastin said on Twitter this week that they designed the window panes to look like prison bars. There was even a sketch.

[rm.livejournal.com]

(IIRC, it premiered not long after CoE)

Timing would therefore make any relation impossible (also, I know when this thing started filming which was forever ago). I do wonder when it went into the schedule though. I'm all "hrmmmm, puzzle puzzle" at TV these days. It's a bit strange.

[lefaym.livejournal.com]

I think that the way that Torchwood fandom has responded to this show is something that would have been very difficult to predict; on paper, the two shows don't look like they'd appeal to the same audiences. I think it's the finer details that have caused the huge fandom crossover.

As for timing, and the show starting just after CoE, I don't think that has much to do with it -- I think there were only a handful of TW people active in White Collar fandom before copperbadge recommended it about a month ago, highlighting many of the reasons that White Collar is likely to resonate with TW fans -- especially those of us who were dissatisfied with CoE.

[heron61.livejournal.com]

Indeed. I don't know Psych at all, but Burn Notice is remarkable in many ways (and is a far better & more serious show than White Collar, but also utterly non-slashy), Royal Pains is equally fun and harmless fluff, and In Plain Sight is a deeply surprising and truly excellent show (and hands down, my vote for best current US show).

USA seems to have a a general policy of less sexism and more overall humanity than any other major network. Other than Leverage, which I consider an even guiltier pleasure than White Collar, USA is now my go-to station for actiony TV, largely because all other options make me want to throw bricks through my TV screen due to massive amounts of sexism, hideously glorified violence, or other similar wing-nuttiness.

On USA network

[bugeyedmonster.livejournal.com]

Do you know if you can watch their stuff online. (And why am I asking when I could just go check?)

I like Bruce Campbell, but I haven't seen Burn Notice as I don't have cable. I don't want to pay that much for what I want to see, and have 200 channels I'll never watch. (Seems wasteful to me.) Plus the darned provider around my area doesn't have everything I want. (I was told I can't get the Scifi channel or the Mystery channel.) Bummer.

Oh, my mom watches Psych. And you could slash the two main leads if you so desire. Shawn, the lead is a fake psychic. He's really a pretty damned good observer of people, he just pretends that spirits tell him everything. His friend Gus is like a Greek chorus, always the voice of reason but Shawn never listens to him. Lou Diamond Phillips stars on the show sometimes.

And boy does LDP have a nice torso. The one I saw had LDP (he's great at delivering this funny lines with a very straight face.) In one scene he had on his holster and pants, but no shirt. My mom said something, and I vaguely recall that LDP had a line, but I honestly don't remember what was said.

Yes, I'm the kind of fan-girl who becomes a pile of drool and goo on the floor at the sight of shirtless LDP.

And now I'm wondering if I should go watch White Collar...

Re: On USA network

[popfiend.livejournal.com]

http://www.usanetwork.com/series/burnnotice/

You can watch episodes here.

Re: On USA network

[bugeyedmonster.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the link!

[laura47.livejournal.com]

I am really surprised and happy with USA, i remember it being so cheesy in the 90s. i am happy with less gory violence, too. is the whole "i don't like guns" thing a... thing, these days? I don't actually watch much TV that would have guns, and Eliot and Neal's oft stated dislike guns stands out to me. I wonder how much that is a quick way to signal a certain kind of character, and I am too sleep deped to make anything coherent out of it.

[lefaym.livejournal.com]

Neal: Has fandom finally found a character that they can write as a cliched woobie and actually be sorta right? Jesus does this guy want approval or what? I really hope he gets shot at some point. We need guilty/worried!Peter and wounded/freaked-out!Neal like NOW.

I have to say, I was absolutely shocked by how much I want to read woobie!Neal -- given that I've always been so anti-woobie as far as Ianto's concerned.

Regarind Peter/Neal and Jack/Ianto parallels -- I was talking about this with lionessvalenti earlier, and we thought that the real parallel was more like Doctor/Jack. Neal is, I think, a lot more like Jack than like Ianto -- and like Jack, he needs someone to rein him in; he needs someone to tell him what to do. Unlike the Doctor, however, Peter is fully dedicated to doing what's best for Neal -- the Doctor, on the other hand, only ever attempted to help Jack in a very half hearted way.

Of course, there are huge parallels between Doctor/Jack and Jack/Ianto too, although most of those seem to revolve around Jack trying to be like the Doctor (or rather, trying to be like his idealised verion of the Doctor) and failing abysmally. I think that's what so many Torchwood fans like about this (or maybe I'm just projecting my own issues here) -- Peter doesn't fail, and therefore Neal doesn't fail either. There's genuine mutual love between them, which never happened with either Doctor/Jack or Jack/Ianto. It's a show about people becoming their best as the result of this type of relationship, instead of a show about people failing because of it.

ETA: But in spite of all of that, when I was four episodes in, my response to the show felt pretty similar to yours, insofar as it was along the lines of "this is a good show, and I'll keep watching it, but I'm not sure I get why people are so VERY INTO IT." I think for me, episode 7 was the tipping point where I crossed over into OMG LOVE.

[laura47.livejournal.com]

does anyone give a damn about kate? i don't think so.

do you love June? <3 June

have you read fic yet? i love this: http://archiveofourown.org/works/47938

[rm.livejournal.com]

I LOVE JUNE. MORE JUNE PLEASE. Also, I really, really like to think she and Neal hooked up in that first episode.

[lefaym.livejournal.com]

lionessvalenti wrote The Memory of All That, which is a gorgeous Neal/June fic. :)

And it's not spoilery either -- so long as you know the characters, you're good.

[laura47.livejournal.com]

I love June. I think between this and reboot trek i am discovering i am more uncomfortable than i thought with significant age disparity in pairings, need to think about that. no, wait, i don't care how old jack is. but support (visually) older people with each other. must ponder. perhaps should read june/neal fic for research. :)

[laura47.livejournal.com]

i hadn't thought at all, consciously, about how this relates to torchwood, but i'm still unable to think about torchwood, mostly.

I will say Bomer has replaced Barrowman as hottest male actor for me. Story of my life, lusting after gay men. (and googling reveals that Bomer is not actually out, just non-committal. Internet, why do you keep telling me people are out and gay when they are instead just non-committal. Which is fine for them, but I am concerned about this trend in my fannish information flow.)

[laughingacademy.livejournal.com]

I lust after Neal's apartment so hard.

I was thinking about WC vs TW on my way to work and decided that Kate = Lisa Hallett, only I feel like Lisa had more presence that Kate has managed.

Eastin must have delivered one hell of a pitch. Have you seen the mock-up poster he made to show the network? It's here, and it has one of the best taglines ever.

[rm.livejournal.com]

Eastin is my new hero for that tagline.

[heron61.livejournal.com]

And Peter is such a weird guy. Actually, he's not, Peter's very ordinary, but I'm taken by how much we see some sort of real, sincere insecurity form him in strange little ways. For a show that has no structural nuance to speak of, there's a lot of nuance in the characters.

El: still awesome.

Clothes: Becoming even more awesome.

Neal: Has fandom finally found a character that they can write as a cliched woobie and actually be sorta right?

My snarky name for the show is the "pretty white guy show", it's total fluff, it's a show with two male protagonists who we are repeatedly shown are totally het, the plots make little sense and their version of the FBI honestly belongs in the universe of Warner Brothers cartoons (wait until you get to the episode with the itching powder), and yet everything you have said above is also true.

Of course, mostly why I watch it is that there's a fair amount of fanfic that's not only poly, but written by people who actually get poly. Also, while I don't trust the show to get any better, and I'm betting that in two or three seasons (& if we're unlucky, next season) it will get substantially worse, I do mostly trust it not to be a cruel like Torchwood or mindnumbingly stupid like the last part of BSG, so for me at least its mildly slashy utterly harmless fluff. Also, while it's a very little thing indeed, seeing both a functional romantic relationship between a adult man and a adult women that actually looks like something I would call positive is good (and far too rare), and having them not have children and are not either trying to or heartbroken because they haven't/can't works for me even better.

[laura47.livejournal.com]

oh god the itching powder episode, it is SO HARD for me to deal with the things this FBI does while still claiming moral high ground over others.

and <3 <3 <3 <3 on poly people/people who get it writing poly fic. (recs? need more)

[heron61.livejournal.com]

Contractual Obligations: A Love Story in Three Traffic Lights is powerful, intense, and very nicely poly, Give Us This Day is wonderful, and having been in a ploy triad for the last 5 1/2 years, it's clear to me that the person who wrote this really understands what it's like to be poly in a way the most people don't. Recreational Flirting is also very good and fun.

[laura47.livejournal.com]

5 1/2? Congratulations. :-)

and having been in a ploy triad for the last 5 1/2 years, it's clear to me that the person who wrote this really understands what it's like to be poly in a way the most people don't.

oooooh, yay, will read.

[mecurtin.livejournal.com]

I also have to say I am amazed this show got bought.

Why? What is so un-buyable about it, from The Industry's perspective? It's very hard for me to not see it through fangirl eyes, so I don't get what makes the concept a difficult sell.

[rm.livejournal.com]

Main device has been done before. What makes this different? If you say the point of differentiation is bromance, that's so last year. If you say it's nuanced characters, the execs handwave you for being all writerly. If you say it's really about two dudes who madly love the women in their lives, you're targetting the wrong demographic. It's a show that should have guns and explosions and doesn't. It's hard to make it make sense. I'd love to know what the two minute spiel was on this thing.

[cruentum.livejournal.com]

Maybe the magic moment of OMG will happen to you that seems to have happened for a lot of people, but drawing the parallels to CoE reactions, I was never dissatisfied with what CoE did, what it did to the characters, the settings, or the tone of Torchwood, so maybe it is in fact just not my kind of show. I'll go back to catching up to Sopranos now, or something.

I'd disagree about El serving as Gwen actually, I think it breaks down there, because Gwen has never had the kind of chemistry with both Jack and Ianto that El has and develops over the course of the show (keep watching for that, I guess) with both Peter and Neal.

In general, there is too much rulebreaking going on in it for me, rulebreaking without significant consequences, if you will, so huh ... so much for the consequences for behavior thread of CoE comparisons.

Anyway, maybe the whole 'Best Thing Ever' will happen for you, uh, good luck!

[nysidra.livejournal.com]

I've said before that White Collar is all about human interaction and less about the plot or the setting. Superb study of interpersonal play, the dynamic and Neal and Peter *make* the show as awesome as it is.

Keep watching, it may lag, but never fail, and as weird as the plot may be for that day - there's nothing about Peter and Neal that won't put a smile on your face.

[popfiend.livejournal.com]

What I find interesting about this show is that it was obvious that they were going to become friends. So rather than turn it into some sort of epic struggle, they just let it happen.

These are 2 guys who are very good at what they do and it fits in with Neal's personality that he'd have a certain respect for the guy who caught him...TWICE!

And Peter is simply a stand up guy and wants to help Neal be that.

And yes, he's one of the most normal people on TV. And he's not "broken" like a lot of smart people on TV.

/my 2 cents

[tsarina.livejournal.com]

How curious. Maybe I will have to watch some of this.

I started watching Southland when TNT picked up the originals and started shooting a new season. That show is way too good to be on network television.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

I'd assume that part of the reason White Collar got bought is that it picks up on the zeitgeist of the "great recession." It's got a vicarious look into the lifestyles of those at the top of the new gilded age at the same time as it taps into the desire to take them down (both in terms of the FBI taking down the corrupt rich and in the way the show glosses over Neal's crimes as a sort of half-Robin Hood thing).

Have you been to collarkink? There's quite of bit of fantastic fic in there.

[rm.livejournal.com]

Oh, that's a REALLY smart analysis that I completely missed.

and I've not. Being only on episode four, I've been treading carefully.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Oh, yeah, you're right--definitely wait until you've seen the finale before venturing over to collarkink.