sundries

[rm]

An Iranian actress who is openly gay has been denied asylum in the UK, which means she is going to be sent home to be executed. There is a petition to appeal the Home office ruling at the link.

Jesus christ, jet lag. I went to bed at 9:30 last night, claiming it was a nap, had a couple of weird sleepy conversations with Patty when she came to visit me and passed out for real at some point after John Stewart. Blech. I'd like my clock to sync, please.

What will the post-volcano era mean for air travel?

Bamboo above the city.

Long thing about Buffy fandom issues deleted, because like I said, I'm not in the Buffy fandom and I just stumbled into a whole mess of drama with history that involves all sorts of people I know, and since I'm not able to sort it out, I'm pulling the link.

However, the points in my own head from all this I care about are:

1. It's crappy to call "sexism" or "homophobia" or whatever else because you didn't get the story you wanted.
2. It's also crappy to use sexism or sex-negative language to try to silence people in fandom.
3. A complicated world means that sometimes things that look like 1 or 2, aren't.
4. There's no such thing as the truth, especially when it comes to stories.
5. Less hate; more joy.

sparkindarkness has a roundup of anti-LGBTQ violence.

By now you've a presumably all heard about the Lane Bryant ad deemed too sexy for TV; it's like concern trolling by the networks or something.

Anyway, the issue, I suspect, is about "curve" and "jiggle" because those are both items that often get cited in movie ratings stuff too.

Is this a completely evil double standard? Yes.
Is it one with a lot of precedence? Oddly enough, yes, but like I said, it's in film ratings decisions.
Should we be talking about this? Oh yes.
Should people of all genders be pissed off? Yes.
Should this shit stop? Yes and immediately.

But, can we please not use this as a way to condone other types of body policing even if they are less severe/constant/societally detrimental? All body policing is bad.

Look, I have skinny privilege. I get that. I get that when people say negative things about skinny people the overall personal effect on me and people like me is smaller than when people say things about fat people. So my asking you not to do the stuff I'm about to describe below is less societally important. I get that. But I'm going to ask anyway:

When you say "disgusting women with no meat on their bones", "anorexic looking" to mean any skinny person, and otherwise deride people who are built like me as not being "real women" because of their weight -- you're talking about me. And then maybe you'll go, "no, no no, I don't mean you" and that's when I have to say "well, actually you do."

Look, I don't care if the way I look isn't your cup of tea. I don't need it to be. And I don't care if you find me revolting. But a modicum of manners and a world in which one group of people doesn't need to be cut down in order to sing the praises of another, would be awesome.

Because you want to know what I think? The Lane Bryant ad chick is HOT and I don't need to hate on anyone, including myself, to think so. And neither do you.

Last night we watched "Guise will be Guise" and "Darla" on Angel before I passed out. Poor fucking Wesley. He's so incompetent, until he's not thinking and then he's awesome. Also, boy gets around! There was the bleached blond thing a couple of episodes back, and now with the sacrifice chick! I _loved_ her enumerating the sex she'd had and I _loved_ Wesley being all "thank god" about it. It was funny and awkward and true to life, and isn't Welsey a funny creature. So awkward and weird and ridiculous, but apparently his one secret skill is falling into bed with people.

Meanwhile, "Darla" -- OMGWTF, Spike, you actually used to be even more ridiculous! I can barely stand it! Also, that long hair thing, not a good look for Angel.

And from misfitina: Woman wears men's clothes to prizefight, world gasps. It was, of course, 1910.

Comments

[tdanaher.livejournal.com]

And I don't care if you find me revolting. But a modicum of manners and a world in which one group of people doesn't need to be cut down in order to sing the praises of another, would be awesome.

I wish everyone would follow that advice when it comes to discussing political and religious stances, too, but the path of least resistance for many people is to instinctively head right for the "you're not me or a me surrogate and therefore you're evil" toolbox.

[(Anonymous)]

Probably guilty as charged. /o\

[brewsternorth.livejournal.com]

...Helps to know that was me. :(

[brightlotusmoon.livejournal.com]

What she said.

It just applies to everything, really. Like my decision to not have children. I've been called so many horrible things, because people can't seem to see outside their own heads.

I used to be anorexic. Almost died. Then I gained a healthy twenty-five pounds. Now it seems like my weight, clothing size, and frame must be scrutinized. But like I said, people are in their own heads too much.

[curriejean.livejournal.com]

Welllll, yes. But then, no, since some groups actually are in competition because they directly contradict one another ideologically.

But people do have a nasty habit of assuming competition exists where none needs to, while rarely assuming that there's no competition where there actually is, or should be.

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

I think commenting on someone else's body type is judgey assholery, whether they couch it in "concern for your health" or not, or whether someone is large or small (or tiny or towering).

My best friend from school can eat like a horse (and does,) works out as often as I do (never; fuck that noise) and has never broken 100 pounds at 5'6". She's heard worries about her obvious anorexia so much she could have cards ready and hand them out.

People who aren't "the average" have enough trouble finding clothes to fit without having to deal with random commentary and judgment on top of it.

[firinel.livejournal.com]

If it helps (either your mind, or others') I'm no where near privileged in the body department and I hate that with an absolute passion.

It's related to society treating women as if their bodies are a public commodity, and so able to be remarked on as if they've some ownership of them, rather than purely and solely the ownership of the person whose body it is.

[delchi.livejournal.com]

It's related to society treating women as if their bodies are a public commodity, and so able to be remarked on as if they've some ownership of them, rather than purely and solely the ownership of the person whose body it is.

This this this this this this.

[eac.livejournal.com]

As a formerly skinny person (now just "normal" sized), thank you for the body policing point. I found it really difficult in my teens and 20s to be mocked for how thin I was and to be told I wasn't a real woman...and despite the assumptions of some other people, being that thin really didn't get me any play. (And I also think that model is hot. Wow.)

I started to reply about this elsewhere and decided that it would be derailing the thread (well, and my son started whining and I wasn't sure I could reply carefully in that context), so I appreciate you articulating it here.

[schmidtybooger.livejournal.com]

Look, I have skinny privilege. I get that. I get that when people say negative things about skinny people the overall personal affect on me and people like me is smaller than when people say things about fat people. So my asking you not to do the stuff I'm about to describe below is less societally important. I get that. But I'm going to ask anyway:

When you say "disgusting women women with no meat on their bones", "anorexic looking" to mean any skinny person, and otherwise deride people who are built like me as not being "real women" because of their weight -- you're talking about me. And then maybe you'll go, "no, no no, I don't mean you" and that's when I have to say "well, actually you do."

Look, I don't care if the way I look isn't your cup of tea. I don't need it to be. And I don't care if you find me revolting. But a modicum of manners and a world in which one group of people doesn't need to be cut down in order to sing the praises of another, would be awesome.

Because you want to know what I think? The Lane Bryant ad chick is HOT and I don't need to hate on anyone, including myself, to think so. And neither do you.

Thank you for this. At my half marathon race last week I was drinking a protein shake after to help recover and also because I need/want to add some muscle to frame. A female team member asked me if they work well and I said, "they really help shorten my recovery time and I'm also trying to bulk up a bit so they're good for that, too." She replied with, "I'm so happy to hear you say that. I'm so sick of skinny bitches trying so hard to stay skinny," and didn't understand why I found that really offensive.
One, it's really hard for me to gain weight due to my thyroid bullshit so thanks for hating me for a medical condition. Two, I'm a skinny bitch, so shut the fuck up.

I'm not saying it's not harder to be overweight in this country, but I don't see the movement to "love women of all sizes" including those of thinner builds as readily. I was always teased growing up for being a "beanpole" or "2 by 4" or for being flat-chested and it's taken me a long time to love my body. I hate feeling guilty for that.

Edited to Add: I'm trying to add muscle/"bulk up" because of all the crazy races I have coming up so I need the strength to finish them.

[firefly124.livejournal.com]

When you say "disgusting women women with no meat on their bones", "anorexic looking" to mean any skinny person, and otherwise deride people who are built like me as not being "real women" because of their weight -- you're talking about me. And then maybe you'll go, "no, no no, I don't mean you" and that's when I have to say "well, actually you do."

Look, I don't care if the way I look isn't your cup of tea. I don't need it to be. And I don't care if you find me revolting. But a modicum of manners and a world in which one group of people doesn't need to be cut down in order to sing the praises of another, would be awesome.

Thanks for the reminder on this. Really, if we could just get over the idea that any particular body type is bad/disgusting/whatever, it would be a very good thing.

[p-zeitgeist.livejournal.com]

The Lane Bryant thing gets worse, believe it or not. I just followed your link to their site to have a look at the declined spot -- I'm always curious about what the networks refuse to air on someone else's dime -- was directed from there to YouTube, and discovered that some idiot or collection of idiots over at YouTube have flagged the thing for having potentially inappropriate content. So I haven't been able to access it at all; I'd have to create an account and sign in to have access to it.

Which isn't such a big deal for me personally: it's no one else's problem that I refuse to register with various internet sites because of my weird political issues. But it means that the network people were at least partially right: whatever's in the spots, our fellow citizens do think it's too disturbing for the general public to stumble upon without specific intent.

Unlike, say, the Lady Gaga/Beyonce "Telephone." The mind boggles.

[aviv-b.livejournal.com]

YouTube-That's beyond bizarre. She's way less 'jiggly' than a whole lot of women on music videos. She's sexy and gorgeous and there is nothing, nothing at all inappropriate showing.

I guess the idea that a women who has curves actually feels good about herself is way too subversive for the mainstream public.

[firefly124.livejournal.com]

I guess the idea that a women who has curves actually feels good about herself is way too subversive for the mainstream public.

Yes, generally, it unfortunately is. I and other plus-size bellydancers often get obnoxious remarks in performances for the general public.

On the other hand, thinner dancers often get obnoxious remarks from within the bellydance community. Different standards of ideal, but both boil down to "if you don't look the way I think you should, I'm going to be hate on you for it."

[redstapler.livejournal.com]

One of the coolest things ever was that my mom took a couple of belly dance classes with me.

At the time she did it, she'd survived breast cancer and had a double mastectomy. She had always been tall, slim, and flat chested, and for the last nine years of her life, she was even more so of that last. She wore her falsies to the class, and shimmied with the best of them.

My mom was a rad lady, and it's a little nauseating to think someone would give her snark for the elements of her physicality that another dancer wouldn't "approve of."

[nicoli-dominn.livejournal.com]

Oh wow. Not that I'm surprised or anything, but I just watched that video (with no restrictions, of course) and it's actually more sexual than the ad. About ten times as much. It's definitely not about sexual content if that video flies but the Bryant ad doesn't.

[airspaniel.livejournal.com]

MTV actually refused to air that Lady Gaga/Beyonce video because of its content. It's still massively fucked that the Lane Bryant ad got flagged for inappropriate content, while the Telephone video did not.

[nicoli-dominn.livejournal.com]

I'm not surprised that MTV wouldn't air the video. I was commenting more on YouTube's restrictions than anything. But yes, agreed on the massive fuckery.

[keever.livejournal.com]

FWIW, Lane Bryant says they pulled the ad from YouTube themselves because of a trademark/clearance issue. (You can also see non-YouTube video of the commercial at that link.)

rm, I love what you said about body policing. I think for fat women in particular (of which I am one), it's very tempting to buy into the "real women have curves" narrative because it's one that actually prizes our bodies in a culture that utterly lacks positive messages about them. I think for some, that feels so good that they just don't care to look too critically at what accepting that line really means. I think there's also a definite -- and misguided -- sense of wanting the privileged to feel what it's like to be down here for a change, too.

This is where I think the acknowledgements of thin privilege like yours from those who enjoy it go a long way towards helping people embrace the critical thinking around this: when thin people demonstrate that they get that for us, it's about pervasive discrimination as well as the personal pain, it becomes easier to drop the defensiveness and actually see other women's experiences with body policing on different points on the spectrum as another expression of the sexism we're all subjected to. It's easier to hear "all body policing is bad" coming from someone who isn't fat when it doesn't feel like they're equating our experiences and thus, minimizing or dismissing them.

[marzipan-pig.livejournal.com]

I was once in the elevator at work with a quite thin coworker and another fat woman got on and gave me a smug 'skinny bitch' bonding sidelong look at my coworker and I wanted to jump up and down and be like SHE IS SO NOT LIKE THAT b/c she WASN'T. It was like, look, yes, I'm fat, and I feel good about myself when I'm around my friends who love themselves and me, not when I'm bonded with other fat women who think of themselves as against other people. It was such a quick interaction though and I couldn't pack all of my 'we're all pushed against similar oppressions / it's all such a fucking trap' stuff into one moment before we got off the elevator; the best I could do was NOT play into the bonding-against-my-coworker dynamic (who thankfully didn't notice it until we talked about it later).

[keever.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I've totally had this experience, too. I get why it happens, but it makes me sad.

[nicoli-dominn.livejournal.com]

Why do I get the sense that the anti-Lane Bryant faction are just a bunch of people who are intimidated by how gorgeous the model is? There is NO DIFFERENCE between the messages a Lane Bryant ad and a Victoria's Secret ad send out. There's no logical explanation as to why the Lane Bryant model is more suggestive, more sexual, more anything than the typical Victoria's Secret model.

[nicoli-dominn.livejournal.com]

Thinking about sending a postcard of this picture to ABC with a note saying "CENSOR THIS!"

Except that they'd probably take me seriously.

[ophymirage.livejournal.com]

that.. is a really hot pic. who is it?

[nicoli-dominn.livejournal.com]

That's Beth Ditto, from the band Gossip. I've never actually heard them, but when I was surfing around on music-related blogs, I saw one of their press photos and was immediately drawn in by her.

[imaginarycircus.livejournal.com]

I've found out something interesting about melatonin that might help you? You have to take a tiny dose in most cases for it to work. Like half a milligram. If you buy 1mg pills you can break them in half and take it 30 minutes before you want to go to sleep. Though it kind of sounds like you're just exhausted, which given your adventure doesn't surprise me at all.

[humascot97.livejournal.com]

Valerian will also help. Fair warning: the pills have a tendency to smell/taste like mulch.

imaginarycircus, thanks for the 'smaller is better' dosage info about the melatonin. I've been taking 3 3mg tabs at night to help me sleep and it hasn't done much, so I'll try splitting a tab per your advice and see what happens.

[imaginarycircus.livejournal.com]

I tried 5 mg tablets years ago and didn't sleep at all, but they did a recent study and many people need a very small dose in order for it to work. .5mgs is the perfect dose for me. Anything higher doesn't help at all.

[alabastard.livejournal.com]

When you say "disgusting women women with no meat on their bones", "anorexic looking" to mean any skinny person, and otherwise deride people who are built like me as not being "real women" because of their weight -- you're talking about me. And then maybe you'll go, "no, no no, I don't mean you" and that's when I have to say "well, actually you do."

Look, I don't care if the way I look isn't your cup of tea. I don't need it to be. And I don't care if you find me revolting. But a modicum of manners and a world in which one group of people doesn't need to be cut down in order to sing the praises of another, would be awesome.

Because you want to know what I think? The Lane Bryant ad chick is HOT and I don't need to hate on anyone, including myself, to think so. And neither do you.

Amen! The golden rule, so simple, and applies almost everywhere.

[angstzeit.livejournal.com]

I think your words could be applied to all with privilege. One might hate the privilege, but there's no need to dis the person.

[i-amthecosmos.livejournal.com]

I consider myself to be in the fat acceptance community, I don't like diets, and I try to follow HAES (health at every size) as a yardstick for eating and exercising.

I cannot stand the term "real women" or "real sized women" to refer to plus sized women. It's so obnoxious to me. Also, it alienates potential allies, as I've discovered that naturally thin women often tend to be sympathetic to the fat acceptence movement.

It's funny, I'm a member of a "health" (read diet and exercise) community, because I want to be stronger and stop eating emotionally. I am the only person who doesn't diet. People don't do shaming there, but my "I'll eat a cookie if I feel like eating a cookie" approach puzzles a lot of them. Oh well.

[natf.livejournal.com]

My thing is that if I don't eat the cookie because I am told that it is bad, I will "sin" later and eat all twenty in the packet in about ten minutes - or less. Diet shaming is counterproductive for so many people - I'm with you!

[i-amthecosmos.livejournal.com]

Exactly-I already have a problem with emotional eating. Making what people (women, in most cases) eat a moral issue leads to all kinds of problems. Now, people can and have made moral cases against food companies for pesticides, fast food, ect. But when most people talk about food/the "obesity epidemic", they're either talking about women who can't feed themselves or their families right.

...This is kind of a different issue! Sorry, just woke up.

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

I so agree with your points that the term "real women" is offensive (this is coming from a fatty). I think many people use it to indicate their acceptance of and sympathy with heavier women in a world that glorifies the lean--"you can never be too rich or too thin." Or to indicate that the average woman in this country would be considered overweight by most, aesthetically if not medically. Doesn't matter why one carelessly uses such an expression; it's still not right. Weight preferences in a world which objectifies women vary according to changing fashions and fads.

[rm.livejournal.com]

Yup, also, it's very gender essentialist in that it implies that there are check-boxes for gender other than what a person tells me. For me, the "real women have curves" is uncomfortable both because of my biological sex and my weight, but because of my perception of gender.

It's a seemingly harmless phrase with tentacles into a lot of potentially very negative stuff.

And thank you, because hearing what you say makes me feel like I'm making sense as opposed to being a whiny derailer on the whole thing.

[thatwordgrrl.livejournal.com]

Anybody who honestly believes that you can never be too thin doesn't know anybody with anorexia.

Just. Sayin'.

[heron61.livejournal.com]

Long thing about Buffy fandom issues deleted, because like I said, I'm not in the Buffy fandom and I just stumbled into a whole mess of drama with history that involves all sorts of people I know, and since I'm not able to sort it out, I'm pulling the link.

I don't know if this is referring to the events at the end of Season 6 or something else, but the ending of Season Six quite honestly looked a whole lot like the standard homophobic cliche - part of this was the way it was handled and the rest was the fact that the 2nd half of season 6 was overall one of the worst parts of Buffy and felt very sloppy and ill-done. If I ever watch Buffy again, I'd be very tempted to stop at the end of Season 5.

As for Angel - I'm curious are you finding Season 2 considerably better than Season 1? When I watched it, I was quite surprised by how much better the 2nd season was from the first, and am curious if you have found the same difference.

[curriejean.livejournal.com]

Signed the petition for Firouz. I know petitions like that are laregely useless, but fuck. It's insane.

[thatwordgrrl.livejournal.com]

So does this mean that the female dancers on So You Think You Can Dance and Dancing With the Stars will now all start being required to wear burlap sacks?

Seems like a fair trade to me.

[austengirl.livejournal.com]

I signed the petition for Kiana Farouz. Things like this are the one of the many reasons the UK badly needs some immigration reform. I think a petition should be started on the prime minister's site, but I worry that duplicating efforts would dilute the effectiveness of petitioning.

And I really, really don't understand what was problematic about the Lane Bryant ad. Positive self-image isn't something the networks want to publicize? *shakes head*

[delchi.livejournal.com]

The phrase "Real woman" is pretty much useless as far as I am concerned. How a woman is considered more or less "Real" based on physical appearance is insanity, and yet another bit of brainwashing handed to us on a daily basis.

As for the ad, I saw it. The woman in the ad looks almost spot on to a friend of mine I know here in lj-land. Also while we may be looking at it from different angles, I agree with your assessment : hot. :)

From another point of view, expressed to me by a MtF friend, there are people out there who would kill to look like the woman in that ad.

The whole "Real" thing is just spin to make people accept one product over another. Yes, I mean to use the word product there because that is how 'real' is used - and it is objectifying. People want "Real coke" and not the "Store brand" coke. There was a cartoon series called The Real ghostbusters" that was supposed to take away from a knockoff. In this case some people will argue that "Real" women have specific qualities, and lacking those qualities you just aren't worth a thing. It's just so amazingly stupid. It's right up there with "Real" men eating burgers,smoking, and driving pickup trucks vs wearing sweaters and eating tofu.

[featherofeeling.livejournal.com]

Huh, completely unrelated to the discussion, but the music in the ad is Chopin's Prelude in c minor, and I used to play it on the piano. It's never sounded so sexy before!

[saharafic.livejournal.com]

You know, I just want to say that I love that you post these sundries. I look forward to them!

Thank you for the reminder about body acceptance. As a fat girl, I think that the "real women" rhetoric is a misguided attempt at trying to champion ourselves when the majority of the world vilifies us. But then we are just as bad. I needed that reminder.

Thank you.

On the flip side, my reaction to the commercial was - they probably don't have that purple bra in my size, dammit.

[kel-reiley.livejournal.com]

wow, i've never actually seen a lane bryant ad on tv, but my mom shops there a lot, and it's the one place i can find a good affordable bra that fits me just right
that commercial? was WAY LESS provacative than a victoria's secret ad - and don't EVEN get me started on MPAA ratings
The Lane Bryant ad chick is HOT - ::nods:: and this 'real women' bullshit pisses me off so much (from a NOT skinny person)

On the Iranian actor

[bugeyedmonster.livejournal.com]

Who the heck would I write a letter or email to concerning trying to get her asylum in the US? (Just in case the UK doesn't change their mind?)

Re: On the Iranian actor

[paulshandy.livejournal.com]

Can you offer her a job in America? That would get her a green card?

Re: On the Iranian actor

[bugeyedmonster.livejournal.com]

unfortunately, I don't own my own business. (I work 2 part time jobs.)

[paulshandy.livejournal.com]

As a plus-sized, professionally feminist, semi-sexist, post-modernist, artistic male, I tune out people who use the word "real." Delchi made some good points about it being over used commercially, and many others made good points about it being used personally. "Real" has become an adjective of manipulation, a tool of verbal control over definitions of thought. I don't care if someone thinks a "real" man makes more money than I do, I don't care (much) if women think "real" men look like Brad Pitt and act like ... well, that varies a lot, of course, depending upon the individual woman's desires. As a post-modernist, I debate the usefulness of the word at all.

I exercise and watch my diet because I don't want to spend my last days in a nursing home and my grandmother died of diabetes. Do I need a better reason?

As for fans losing their minds over Buffy and many other shows, check out tvtropes.com for "Fan dumb" and related topics.