in which I say something unpleasant, incendiary and triggery about those opposed to DADT repeal

[rm]

I'm following the hearings a bit and the usual chestnut of "there will be more male-on-male rape if we allow homosexuals in the military" keeps getting dragged out.

1. There are already gay people in the military.
2. If they were going to commit rape, a change in the DADT laws wouldn't stop them.
3. Gay women exist.
4. Why do you think all gay men are rapists?

And then I go "Ooooooooooooooooooh."

Because for me, the only reasonable explanation I can find for the "all gay men want to do is rape other men" bullshit isn't the "homophobia comes from latent homosexuality" argument.

Nope, I hear this shit and I think to myself that these straight men arguing this want to rape every woman they see (whether they ever would or not). And knowing their own desires, they assume that their rape impulses are normal, and that all men, including all gay men, must harbour them too.

It completely creeps me out.

Because let's be clear: the desire to rape, regardless of gender or orientation, is not a default state, and most men aren't rapists and don't desire to be rapists.

But I am completely creeped the fuck out by our politicians that keep arguing the damn gay rape angle.

Comments

[brightlotusmoon.livejournal.com]

Agreed.
Thanks for saying this.

[imaginarycircus.livejournal.com]

It's also possible that the men in question are not used to be sexually objectified by the male gaze and fear it because they know how they look at and think of women. I think this is a less extreme form of your argument, which is probably true in some cases--but I would be shocked if it was true in most cases.

[rm.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'm not saying my response is rational, just that it's the one I keep having.

[dremiel.livejournal.com]

Crap. You're probably right.

[reannon.livejournal.com]

I can't remember what movie it was, but I remember a scene where someone said to a homophobic asshole, "Why is it you assume a gay man can't keep his hands to himself? Isn't that YOUR problem, Bob?"

Given that heterosexual rape in the military is a screamingly huge problem, I can't believe they're continuing to argue that totally specious bullshit. Icon directed at them.

[00goddess.livejournal.com]

To a lot of these guys, heterosexual rape is a perfectly normal,and acceptable, consequence of allowing women into the military, or hell, allowing women any autonomy at all. They do not consider it a problem.

[tsarina.livejournal.com]

Hot damn. Creepy.

[teleens-journal.livejournal.com]

This.

Excellent point. I hate to say it, but with most politicians, the more they say that they think that 'x' is going to happen, the more I think that it's because they either are doing or want to do 'x'.

[themaskmaker.livejournal.com]

Err, yes. Gah. I couldn't put this any better than you just did. May I quote you?

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

Yikes.

Fuck.

Going to bed, in order to have nightmares.

[stardragonca.livejournal.com]

I think you called it.
This has been such a dead issue in Canada for so long, I can't remember it actually being an issue.Gay people are openly serving all over the world.
It's a U.S. thing, not a straight thing, I'm thinking.

[darthhellokitty.livejournal.com]

I would be really interested in finding out what happened when openly gay people were accepted into the military in Canada (and practically every other country in the world).

[xtricks.livejournal.com]

No, it's pretty normal male heterosexual fear of gay men desiring them. It's common everywhere, gyms, sports affairs, etc. The classic homosexual panic.

I think it relates to the weirdness traditional straight men feel at the idea that *they* could be the objects of desire, instead of the proactive chases of objects of desire (women).

[lefaym.livejournal.com]

But I'd also argue that that sort of objectification is part of rape culture, so I don't think it's necessarily an either/or thing.

(Which is not to say I believe that desiring somebody automatically objectifies them -- but I do think that many heterosexual men are trained to conflate desire and objectification, so that for them, there is no way to have one without the other.)

[browneyedgirl65.livejournal.com]

I made that same connection a while back, and I absolutely think that those who believe gay men are just jonesing to rape other are projecting, which yeah. Creeps the hell out of me, too. I stay the fuck away from men who spout this particular line of insanity...

Creeps the hell out of me, too.

[stardragonca.livejournal.com]

Was planning to do that anyway.

[kaffy_r]

I think it's apt to be a mind-blowingly nauseating mix of a) "I objectify women and think of them almost exclusively as sexual objects, therefore other men, even them weird homosexuals, must do the same" and b) "Because I have no understanding whatsoever that homosexuals are Real People Who Think of Affection And Not Just Teh Secks, I assume that that's all they ever think about."

And, as said by others, icon comments on the idiocy.

[woogledesigns.livejournal.com]

For me there's another level of weirdness. That they not only think 'I think this way, so others must too' but they think it's normal to think that way and therefore if anybody thinks otherwise (or if they themselves start to think otherwise) they are deviating and must be corrected.


This is why I like kids so much. The ingonrances and prejudices of children can be immediately confronted and dispelled. The ignorances and prejudices of adults, however...

[neadods.livejournal.com]

Yes. This. I listen to the arguments and some of these guys are projecting like a movie multiplex.

[summer-jackel.livejournal.com]

That is a frighteningly good point.

[chaos-by-design.livejournal.com]

Yeah. They're afraid that they're going to get treated by gay men the way they like to treat women. *






* The homophobes, that is.

[cpolk.livejournal.com]

let's not forget, "and they're powerfully commited to making sure they can't be treated the way they like to treat women."

[karjack.livejournal.com]

I've long thought that when someone claims gay marriage will lead to people (i.e. men) marrying children and animals, what that person is revealing to me is that they have no understanding of informed consent. Gay marriage does very much threaten their view of traditional marriage, because their view of traditional marriage involves male ownership of a woman. The idea of two consenting adults on equal footing entering into a partnership is completely foreign.

Which is somewhat unrelated, but along the same vein of what you're saying. These bigoted attitudes reveal a lot about the people espousing them.

[stardragonca.livejournal.com]

To me that argument seems to be:"If we don't continue persecuting Gay people, then straight people might do something CRAZY!!!"

[woogledesigns.livejournal.com]

Part of me fears that living in a society the divides men and women as subjects and objects respectively actually trains men to think that the desire to rape is normal.

The well worn argument is that mainstream HC porn is responsible for making sex look like a fantasy version of rape, so that young people have no idea what sensitive, response respectful trusting sex looks like, and no desire for it. But I wonder if that porn really just expresses the sublimated beliefs of wider society.

Of course, the distaff counter point is that it also teaches women that to be raped is to be normal and that their value derives from how they are used as objects. Which is why I don't like things like FHM and American Apparel ads.

[mobobocita.livejournal.com]

And what I find so shocking is the stats show it's WOMEN who are more affected by DADT....

And All I can think there is, what? Because they wouldn't *enjoy it*?

[stiobhan.livejournal.com]

I think to myself that these straight men arguing this want to rape every woman they see (whether they ever would or not). And knowing their own desires, they assume that their rape impulses are normal, and that all men, including all gay men, must harbour them too.

Take it one step further, from their point of view: admission [sic] of gayness is admission of sinning against God and nature, and so openly gay men by definition lack moral control of the kind that keeps good Christian heterosexual men from acting on their rapey impulses.

Because let's be clear: the desire to rape, regardless of gender or orientation, is not a default state, and most men aren't rapists and don't desire to be rapists.

Well put. And also, morality isn't the exclusive domain of heterosexual Christians.

[phaetonschariot.livejournal.com]

So yes on the last bit. I hate the phrase "Christian values" or "Christian morals" because they're actually just pretty normal, if slightly socially conservative depending on where in the scale they fall, values. They're not at all particular to Christians. Then again I also hate the word "humane" because humans are pretty shitty at being humane.

[thatwordgrrl.livejournal.com]

I do also think it is a latent fear of not just gay men desiring them but possibly discovering -- oh the horror! -- that they might also desire other men.

Really, I've reached the conclusion that the more hardcore the homophobia, the more hidden the homoerotic feelings.

That baing said, from another angle, a dear gay friend of mine has wistuflly noted that he wished there was a way to tell a straight man "Hey, you are attractive" without it being about him wanting in the other guy's pants. So there you are then.

[stardragonca.livejournal.com]

I'm almost completely convinced that the 100% straight people are the ones who are completely 100% Queer positive, because they have NO ISSUES.
I am that cynical.

[karnythia.livejournal.com]

*shudder* This explains so much.

[stardragonca.livejournal.com]

Yes, yes it does...

[tree00faery.livejournal.com]

I totally agree, but urgh. I'm so tired of being angry about this. Can't we just wake up one day and America will be like Europe? *wishful thinking*

[kel-reiley.livejournal.com]

i am now totally creeped out, as well :(

[darthhellokitty.livejournal.com]

It does paint a horrible picture of what these guys think is a normal reaction to seeing someone of the sex you desire.

On a lighter note, I always want to ask these guys "What makes you think YOUR ass is so desirable?"

[delchi.livejournal.com]

I heard some of this drivel on talk radio. This one caller ( who was beaten to a pulp verbally by the host ) kept referring to gay men in the army as " Nocturnal feeders " ... which apparently means that they wait until other men are asleep and " feed " off of them. The guy seriously said ' How woudl you like it if you woke up in the middle of the night and saw someone down there feeding of of you'.

The stupid, it burns.

[amberite2112.livejournal.com]

the reverse implication being that they feed off of women? i am now triple-creeped out.

[delchi.livejournal.com]

Also I think some politicians go on and on about gay rape in the military because they either have not heard, or refuse to acknowledge that there are women serving in the armed forces.