I hope you forgive my laziness in commenting here rather than there. I have two remarks:
1. I suspect what made them quit during the screening was your use of the "b" word. They weren't even aware that they were bullying until someone labeled it, out loud, as what it was. 2. Given everything that you put in that post, I think it is very ironic that "The Pack" is one of the episodes I see most often cited as people's least favorite. I have been known to skip it in re-watches too: But because I find it difficult to watch.
Yanno, I flashed to our panel from last year. With people crying and defending their refusal to accept Ianto's death and *Paul Cornell* actually making the damn effort to reach out, even though it was his friend who got death threats.
And as emotional and beautiful and awkward as it all was, nobody got bullied in that spacetime. Nobody got told they were wrong or that they needed to toughen up.
I even got defended online in one of the SIJ groups afterward by one of the SIJ people at the panel.
And then I see this, and I just wonder where the fuck it all went so horridly wrong.
RM, I'm not a part of Buffy but always read your posts, I have to admit this made my head spin. Thank goodness you were there when this happened! I think of my teen daughter who would also pipe right up at a convention.
I'm still puzzling out the character bashing, my only other fandom experience was LOTR and honestly there isn't much of it there and I now believe because there aren't many females in the story.
Our first (and only so far) DW con I took my girls to someone from the stage was bashing one of the companions (this time Martha) It was one of the event organizers which surprised me even more. It made me very uncomfortable. It was only the tip of the iceberg though.
As to the rest of your comment: I didn't join DW fandom until after the Martha episodes aired, but I'm aware there was bad bad bad epic racist bullshit around her (which is infuriating not just because racism sucks, but because it obscures several (very feminist) narrative things that are unique to Martha's relationship with the Doctor in all of the Whoniverse -- it's regret-free. She chooses to leave and is glad to do so. She goes onto a life that is not somehow lesser for what her previous life was.).
I am so sorry that you experienced any of that at a con with your kids. Can I ask which one it was?
It was Hurricane Who 2009, we were very late to the fandom
if you want to check our angstometers we started with COE (though the girls haven't seen day 4 or 5) and went backwards from there
I didn't mean to imply the con was negative, it wasn't, I was just shocked that a character would be bashed at all. Martha must be beloved by many in the audience and knowing how we geeky type identify with characters its doubly hurtful.
You are so insightful about Martha's story arc, I never looked at it that way but you are right. (Donna's my favorite and I've seen her bashed online too) Strangely I've never seen a character like, Mickey for example bashed.
Not trying to open a can of worms but was the racism fan created or perceived in the show? I've actually tried to look this up but haven't been able to find anything (darn joining fandom late)
Thank you, my girls were fine, we all got to meet Gareth (who was so sweet to them) they were probably more surprised with how blunt" Gareth was on stage than an off handed comment about Martha made by someone they didn't know. I noticed though and sadly the more I've been in the fandom the more the norm it seems.
I've never been to Hurricane Who, so can't comment. Gally is awesome because it just finished year 22. It knows how to navigate the stuff that can go wrong in fan culture.
The Martha stuff was very much in terms of fan reaction. She was openly vilified in some circles for not being white and was also the subject of marginally more veiled racist attacks. I sort of only saw the whole thing after it happened myself, but from what I have seen the racist stuff was mostly about whether she was attractive and objections for her standing up to the Doctor that were framed in a racist way.
Meanwhile, the non-racist Martha hate was about her pining after the Doctor and was largely from people who were already sick of the romance in the Rose plotline. Of course, Martha eventually gets over her thing for the Doctor, because she chooses to, but not one was really focusing on that.
Overall, I would say that as heated as things can get at Gally, it's very rare that the bad stuff is on display at the con AT ALL, which is part of why I was so surprised by the Buffy thing I talked about. Then again, we have lots and lots of kids and teens at Gally who are well-integrated into programming where appropriate while not stopping us from having both kids-only stuff and adults-only stuff.
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Date: 2011-02-21 09:29 pm (UTC)1. I suspect what made them quit during the screening was your use of the "b" word. They weren't even aware that they were bullying until someone labeled it, out loud, as what it was.
2. Given everything that you put in that post, I think it is very ironic that "The Pack" is one of the episodes I see most often cited as people's least favorite. I have been known to skip it in re-watches too: But because I find it difficult to watch.
no subject
Date: 2011-02-22 01:43 am (UTC)Yanno, I flashed to our panel from last year. With people crying and defending their refusal to accept Ianto's death and *Paul Cornell* actually making the damn effort to reach out, even though it was his friend who got death threats.
And as emotional and beautiful and awkward as it all was, nobody got bullied in that spacetime. Nobody got told they were wrong or that they needed to toughen up.
I even got defended online in one of the SIJ groups afterward by one of the SIJ people at the panel.
And then I see this, and I just wonder where the fuck it all went so horridly wrong.
no subject
Date: 2011-02-22 03:08 am (UTC)I'm still puzzling out the character bashing, my only other fandom experience was LOTR and honestly there isn't much of it there and I now believe because there aren't many females in the story.
Our first (and only so far) DW con I took my girls to someone from the stage was bashing one of the companions (this time Martha) It was one of the event organizers which surprised me even more. It made me very uncomfortable. It was only the tip of the iceberg though.
no subject
Date: 2011-02-22 04:27 am (UTC)bing bing bing!
As to the rest of your comment: I didn't join DW fandom until after the Martha episodes aired, but I'm aware there was bad bad bad epic racist bullshit around her (which is infuriating not just because racism sucks, but because it obscures several (very feminist) narrative things that are unique to Martha's relationship with the Doctor in all of the Whoniverse -- it's regret-free. She chooses to leave and is glad to do so. She goes onto a life that is not somehow lesser for what her previous life was.).
I am so sorry that you experienced any of that at a con with your kids. Can I ask which one it was?
no subject
Date: 2011-02-22 05:12 am (UTC)if you want to check our angstometers we started with COE (though the girls haven't seen day 4 or 5) and went backwards from there
I didn't mean to imply the con was negative, it wasn't, I was just shocked that a character would be bashed at all. Martha must be beloved by many in the audience and knowing how we geeky type identify with characters its doubly hurtful.
You are so insightful about Martha's story arc, I never looked at it that way but you are right. (Donna's my favorite and I've seen her bashed online too) Strangely I've never seen a character like, Mickey for example bashed.
Not trying to open a can of worms but was the racism fan created or perceived in the show? I've actually tried to look this up but haven't been able to find anything (darn joining fandom late)
Thank you, my girls were fine, we all got to meet Gareth (who was so sweet to them) they were probably more surprised with how blunt" Gareth was on stage than an off handed comment about Martha made by someone they didn't know. I noticed though and sadly the more I've been in the fandom the more the norm it seems.
no subject
Date: 2011-02-22 05:35 am (UTC)The Martha stuff was very much in terms of fan reaction. She was openly vilified in some circles for not being white and was also the subject of marginally more veiled racist attacks. I sort of only saw the whole thing after it happened myself, but from what I have seen the racist stuff was mostly about whether she was attractive and objections for her standing up to the Doctor that were framed in a racist way.
Meanwhile, the non-racist Martha hate was about her pining after the Doctor and was largely from people who were already sick of the romance in the Rose plotline. Of course, Martha eventually gets over her thing for the Doctor, because she chooses to, but not one was really focusing on that.
Overall, I would say that as heated as things can get at Gally, it's very rare that the bad stuff is on display at the con AT ALL, which is part of why I was so surprised by the Buffy thing I talked about. Then again, we have lots and lots of kids and teens at Gally who are well-integrated into programming where appropriate while not stopping us from having both kids-only stuff and adults-only stuff.