Oh Noes! There's Gay People In My Fandom!

[rm]

I want to preface this by saying that not only do I not have the solution, I'm having a hard time defining the problem, because it's more complex than it seems at first glance. I also want to preface this by saying I'm not interested in the misery olympics, nor do I speak for (or about) all fannish types or all queer folks who intersect with fandom. I'm also not interested in explaining Privilege 101 to anyone. Yes, I'm expecting a bit of awareness or prep work to ride this ride. (ETA: Since I am starting to get some comments that Don't Get It, let me direct you to: http://www.derailingfordummies.com/)

Let me also say that this isn't remotely as artful as it could or should be, because I'm sorta pissed off right now.

Fandom has a problem. It's about gender, sexual-orientation, arousal and privilege.

Facts as I see them:

- people write fanfic and create fanart and fanvids. Much of this content examines relationships emotionally and/or sexually. Some of this material reflects the canon relationships of programs, some doesn't. Some of this content reflects gay relationships, some straight, with a decent amount of "other" (poly, other-gendered, etc etc etc) thrown in.

- the relationship structures/types are, in some circles, viewed very much like a genre. Het or Slash becomes a genre as much as Romance or Horror does.

- through this relationship orientation/structure/type being viewed as a genre situation, a number of trends, some problematic, begin to occur. These largely seem to center around a disconnect between fiction and fantasy.

And that's where the following rant comes in:

Real, live queer people exist out there in the world and real, live queer people exist in fandom. And I am sick and tired of us being either something merely fetishized or relegated to a genre either appealing or not.

I am _not_ saying that het people shouldn't be writing slash (one unfortunate drama I've seen on the Internet lately), because hey, what turns you on, what interests you, no matter who you are, THAT'S PART OF YOUR SEXUAL AND EMOTIONAL IDENTITY TOO and I'm all for it.

But, for fuck's sake, if you're going to write slash, you don't get to do that and then say that real life homosexuality is immoral (yep, seen this one in fandom -- and yes, I'm looking at you, Harry Potter fandom) without there being repercussions in the sense of community disapproval.

You also might want to consider that going to a Gay Pride parade just to ogle same-sex couples kissing and not because the parade is fun or important or meaningful AND BRAGGING ABOUT IT, is also a bit outre (yep, seen this one in fandom recently too).

You might also want to take a step back from calling every random celebrity queer couple heroes for being out in places where it's largely safe to be out. I'm not saying it's not brave -- it's hard to be famous and gay and people still get bashed even in places like New York City. But, people have given up their lives in this struggle, and for those of us in the struggle, even if we're pretty privileged and haven't had to do the scary stuff (and for the record, I have been a target of anti-gay violence, harassment and rape threats; I've sat in the ER with friends who have been bashed) -- it's creepy when you call us heroes because you like watching us kiss/hold hands/fuck (yep, seen this one in fandom recently, and yeah, I'm looking at you Torchwood fandom). I am not a hero for turning you on, and neither in John Barrowman. Got it? Good.

Now, while we're at it, you might also wish to remember that while your fictional queer people may be posable dolls, real-life queer people aren't. Think fucking twice about asking people to kiss for your amusement, even if they've been perfectly willing to do it before because the gay people who aren't targets of that moment, who are sitting there in that room with you? It can make us feel like shit, because wow, wouldn't it be nice if you were as interested in our stories as our flesh? (And yes, seen this in fandom recently. Seen it at cons. Seen it towards celebrities, seen it towards cosplayers, seen people not get the difference between choosing to do something for one's own amusement as opposed to an audience. Had this shit directed at me, even by people I consider friends. NOT COOL, PEOPLE.)

And tangentally related to the above? Don't ask couples who the top is. Seriously. Don't. Fuck you. (and to continue on a theme, seen it in fandom, seen it directed at celebs, seen it directed at fans, had it directed at me -- why is it so hard to understand that just because someone will seemingly talk about anything you don't have a right to know anything you want? Also the simplification of gay sexuality into role a or role b is really fucking rude).

Now, you don't like slash? It's not your genre? It doesn't turn you on? THAT'S FINE and you're not being homophobic. The problems always start after that -- and those problems? Yeah, sometimes that is homophobia in action. Here's some shit you might want to think twice about doing:

- When you list stuff you don't like in fiction, try not to bookend references to homosexuality with things like horror, incest, rape, etc. Because that? That sure looks homophobic. (Hey fandom, this one happened YESTERDAY).

- When queer content isn't to your taste? Don't call it icky. (DOES NO ONE HAVE ANY COMMON SENSE? -- also yesterday in fandom)

- And seriously people, when there's a discussion about what categories are and are not included in an awards community or whatever, have enough of a clue to realize that heterosexual content is privileged in the media and that gay content isn't. Having awards for that limited amount of gay content in the mainstream media is not actually "the same sort of discrimination" as awards that purport to be for all content but that actively exclude gay content. (That was also this morning, fandom).

Advice in four words: PRIVILEGE - LOOK IT UP!


Look people, it's pretty simple. Slash is a word for a type of content that pairs two characters of the same gender together (the specificity of whether this means non-canon pairing or includes canon pairing is a debate, but not one relevant to this post), and you can feel pretty much any which way about it, I don't much happen to care -- because the issue here isn't sentiment, it's conduct.

But what slash means is that the content it applies to tells stories about gay people: what they do at work, what they argue about in the kitchen, what they feel in their hearts, and yes, often enough (because holy crap, the Internet is for porn) how they fuck.

The key words in the above sentence, in case you got distracted by the implication of curtains!fic or porn: "stories about gay people."

Gay people are real. We are in your fandom. We are very happy to be here. We are happy to exist in fandom content in a way we don't often in the original material content. We, and the fictional characters whose lives reflect our own to some small degree, get to have full lives here in a way we don't often get from ABC or NBC or CBS or the BBC or WHATEVER at 8pm and sadly for many of us, in a way we don't always get to have with our families or in our workplaces.

So stop treating us like we're fictional. Like that real gay people are inconveniences or blow-up dolls or just some weird, slightly novel, abstract idea.

It's rude, it's ignorant, and most importantly, it's boring. Knock it off.

Comments

[eac.livejournal.com]

RM - thanks for this post. I ignore fandom so much lately (too many other irons in the fire) that I miss these things, but I appreciate that you've bothered to write all this out.

Most of these things are so heinous that it's difficult to realize they still happen, but the larger point about fetishizing queer people particularly sticks out in my mind. As a nominally straight girl (married monogamously to a man, though my history is er, unclear and complicated) I do find myself wondering about my slash habit (which I've had since I was 12 or 13, before I understood there WAS slash). There's what turns you on, but then there's the larger question about where slash is seated culturally. Why, exactly, are complicated romances about gay men so compelling to me? Why, exactly, are 85% of femslash or het stories not compelling? Is it really just the same as those men demanding girl on girl action for their own pleasure?

It bears thinking about for me - even while the larger conduct issue is the more important...

[rm.livejournal.com]

It does matter, a lot. I feel pretty unambivalent about liking to read m/m stuff, because of my own genderqueer identity, but at the same time, both of those things are thigns that do force me to look at my own, very real, misogyny, which is another issue wrapped up in all this drama.

I feel so strongly that straight slashers should keep on slashing, but at the same time get that while slash content != gay real life, being into slash sorta demands you get on the bandwagon in terms of respecting, understanding and listening to gay realities.

Some people have figured this out. And some people haven't.

[jonquil.livejournal.com]

"You also might want to consider that going to a Gay Pride parade just to ogle same-sex couples kissing and not because the parade is fun or important or meaningful AND BRAGGING ABOUT IT, is also a bit outre (yep, seen this one in fandom recently too)."

Holy FUCK.

I'm so sorry you're getting the fetishization from people who ought to know better. (Which is, actually, all people.) In particular, I'm very sorry that people are stupid enough to treat you as a walking, breathing interactive sex show.

[rm.livejournal.com]

You know what's really interesting, and is the subject of a different post?

It mostly only happens in fandom when I'm dressed like a man and in the rest of my life when I'm dressed like a woman.

But here's the thing -- fandom, being largely female populated, should know better. And fandom, because we all talk to each other, as oposed to being random people on the street, should know better than to treat actual people they know that way.

The degree of weird gender privilege and lack there of in weird context I've encountered is staggering. The things people think they can say to me because I'm dressed like a fictional character blow my fucking mind (and not the character I am, but Racheline, me, my real name). The things people then think they can keep saying to me, even when I'm being a civilian -- that's when I get angry.

[britgeekgrrl.livejournal.com]

As ever, you are made of awesome and eloquently express opinions that I can barely articulate (much to my annoyance, most days)

May I link to this? I'm guessing it'd be okay as it's public, but it never hurts to ask, no?

[rm.livejournal.com]

Yeah, feel free.

[christycorr]

And tangentally related to the above? Don't ask couples who the top is. Seriously. Don't. Fuck you. (and to continue on a theme, seen it in fandom, seen it directed at celebs, seen it directed at fans, had it directed at me -- why is it so hard to understand that just because someone will seemingly talk about anything you don't have a right to know anything you want? Also the simplification of gay sexuality into role a or role b is really fucking rude).

Oh God, YES. Fuck. That's annoying and it's stupid and it's just... Ugh.

I seldom read meta rants with which I agree 100%, but this was very much one of them.

(Also, the Pride thing? What? People actually do that? And brag about it?)

[delux-vivens.livejournal.com]

[thedigitalkuri.livejournal.com]

win. <3

[genmaicha.livejournal.com]

I boggle.

And also, will be linking. Thank you for this.

[ladyjax.livejournal.com]

*wants to hug you fiercely*

Everything you said and more.

When you list stuff you don't like in fiction, try not to bookend references to homosexuality with things like horror, incest, rape, etc. Because that? That sure looks homophobic. (Hey fandom, this one happened YESTERDAY).

When I read that yesterday, my first reaction was "Oh no she did NOT go there." And then I thought about it some more and figured that of course that's out there because that's how the mainstream treats all of us here in the trenches.

The appropriation of gay sexuality in slash without having to think about the larger community is something that's always struck me as fetishistic ever since I started reading slash. You don't get that so much on the femmeslash side (or I could be wrong because I don't read/write f/f as much as I'd like - which is a longer discussion about source materials and my own needs) but every once in a while I'd encounter that attitude of "oh well, this is how *I* see gay people and it's right and valid," and I'd be thinking, "Hey, those are my friends, my brother, his friends, my COMMUNITY that you're playing with."

Just like I expect folks to listen when I talk to them about racism, so I expect people to listen when real live GLBT people speak up. It makes me angry that doesn't always happen.

[mellacita.livejournal.com]

Linked to this. Great points that many (myself included) needed to hear or be reminded of.

And tangentally related to the above? Don't ask couples who the top is. Seriously. Don't. Fuck you. [snip] Also the simplification of gay sexuality into role a or role b is really fucking rude.

Yes x 10000000000000000.

[usullusa.livejournal.com]

I hate to repeat what's already been said in nearly every single comment. But: This. Yes.

[juniperus.livejournal.com]

jesus.
thank you for writing this. and yes. and yes, again.
fandom really kinda freaks me the fuck out. even though I'm still here. no, that doesn't make much sense.


poseable dolls?! people really fucking do that??!? holy mother of..
O_O

[cael-lilikoi.livejournal.com]

I'm don't consider myself actively part of any fandom... sure, there are things that I'm a fan of, but I don't actively enroll in any community stuff for fandoms... so I'm a bit of an outsider on the matter. I've seen enough of it to get an idea though.

And I often find myself weirded out by the various ways people will mash together characters for the sake of kink. And it's not something I've really heard other people complaining/talking about.

And this is with fictional characters, that I find it awkward that people just conveniently ignore the stories of and twist them about in whatever way necessary to fit into the position of their choice. Maybe it's because I'm a writer myself, so the idea of someone doing that to my own characters is... well, something very unsettling to think about, because I've grown alongside these fictional people, figuring out how to elaborate them as I've matured and figured myself out?

And then I read this, and I go, wait. WAIT. What about all these fandoms where... the characters are essentially tied to their respective actors? Because, well, duh, it's live action? And then I kind of shudder a little. Because HOLYSHIT I can't imagine how they would feel considering it's their face on these things, and can you reading this, as an individual, imagine finding that weird fic about yourself? Where someone has acted out you doing, in no uncertain words, things you would never even considering doing yourself? That you are decidedly uncomfortable with?

I'm not saying that people should... abstain from writing these things, I mean, like you said, that's what gets you off, etc. But I really, really do wish people would do so with a little more respect. Even if these people aren't real to you, they're either real to someone (their creator(s)), or they well enough represent real people that I find myself questioning how you can still be respectful of someone in person when you're so used to taking a pre-established persona and prodding it about like a puppet. I mean... I say this as a straight female who prefers m/m. And I've read and appreciated slash fic before. So I'm not saying, 'ASDLKJd canon only'. I guess I'm more saying, make it about the story, not the actual act. Or something. I'm not sure where I'm going with this.

Maybe I'm looking at it from the wrong angle, though, and I do think this is a separate (if vaguely connected) argument from the one you're talking about. But this post reminded me of it and I'm probably acting out of term by chiding on about it, but I'm curious as to the impression others have of such, so...

(edited for clarification, my train of thought is rather scattered today.)

[lilsongbird.livejournal.com]

"And then I read this, and I go, wait. WAIT. What about all these fandoms where... the characters are essentially tied to their respective actors? Because, well, duh, it's live action? And then I kind of shudder a little. Because HOLYSHIT I can't imagine how they would feel considering it's their face on these things, and can you reading this, as an individual, imagine finding that weird fic about yourself? Where someone has acted out you doing, in no uncertain words, things you would never even considering doing yourself? That you are decidedly uncomfortable with?"

I don't know about other fandoms, but I know at least a couple actors from Star Trek have admitted openly to enjoying slash of their character and how well written some of it is. They enjoy it from an artistic stand point. Obviously they aren't going to love it all... but actors are aware and some do read. Others take the tact of just ignoring it. They know people will be thinkings and or/writing these things and prefer to treat it like the elephant in the room so to speak. It's there but no one talks about it. It's an interesting question. If I get time with any actors (I am often con staff) I might broach it with them to get an honest opinion about their views

[graymary.livejournal.com]

this, god, thank you.

[darthhellokitty.livejournal.com]

I worry sometimes about objectifying people I find attractive - gay or not - in a sort of aside-from-real-life-coolness-and-friendship way, if that makes sense. I certainly appreciated the pretty gay boys kissing at our Pride parade, although that wasn't why I was there, and I can't imagine telling anyone to kiss (I'm very uncomfortable with that whole thing in weddings). I know that, as a white woman married to a man, I have vast amounts of privilege, and I try to be cool about it. Tell me when I'm not, OK?

confused user is confused

[dangomango.livejournal.com]

People have written slash but not supported homosexuality in real life?

.....

Really?

Re: confused user is confused

[threewalls]

I've seen a fandom/livejournal icon that say they support same-sex marriage, so long as both guys are hot.

So much fail.

[ithiliana.livejournal.com]

Here via thingswithwings's link--wanting to say a great big queer real THANK YOU!!!

And will be adding to list of links for my post (which I hope is OK--I see other people saying they'll link, and I came via link---if not, I will pull right down).

ETA: Edited to correct mis-attribution!

[tsarina.livejournal.com]

Holy shit what the hell is going on out there? I think all this batshit crazy is one of the reasons I'm so reluctant to get back into fandom. while I have loved the connections and stories it brings to my life (hey, like flying to NYC to stay with someone to see Alan Rickman in a play and crazy people grabbing bell peppers) - I just don't know if I want to open the door to all that fail.

Sometimes I wish I could just shoot people in the foot for every stupid thing.

[violetisblue.livejournal.com]

"I think all this batshit crazy is one of the reasons I'm so reluctant to get back into fandom."

Let's just say I'm very much rediscovering the joys of liking what I like all by myself or with an extremely small group of friends.

[lazigyrl.livejournal.com]

All I can think is "OMG! People really do that?". As in walking up to someone in RL and ask such questions or "favours"...

Even on the internet, I would only pose questions to gather a better understanding the world I am attempting to write (I'm het female who writes guy slash). And then only in places where I've been extended the privilege to ask as the person or persons have volunteered to be a source for such matters.

[lomedet.livejournal.com]

I'm also here from thingswithwings's post. THANK YOU for saying all of this - it needed to be said, and you said it clearly and cogently.

(I'm still boggling at some of the examples you listed. Thinking about them kind of breaks my soul.)

[capra-maritimus.livejournal.com]

WORD. And thanks.

[crystaldawn.livejournal.com]

G-God, I've seen so many variations on this in fandom, it's mind-boggling. Cons and roleplaying seem to get some of the worst of it that I've seen - gay men seriously get treated like trained pets there.

Thank you for this, though. Hopefully, it'll make some members of fandom think twice about just how much they're fetishizing a certain segment of the population, and that maybe they don't appreciate it.

[druidspell.livejournal.com]

have enough of a clue to realize that heterosexual content is privileged in the media and that gay content isn't.

Reading this reminded me of something a friend of mine pointed out to me: For the majority of the series' run, Will, the titular gay character of Will & Grace, is never seen actually being gay. He was completely sexless--he rarely even touched another man in a non-sexual manner is how completely the network and writers/directors cut him off from the sexual part of his sexuality.
Institutionalized heteronormativity/homophobia is everywhere, even in the shows that have openly gay characters.

ETA: here from thingswithwings' post.

[stardust9121.livejournal.com]

And yet John Barrowman was rejected for the role for being "not 'gay' enough."

[dancedarkly.livejournal.com]

I'm not active in fandom, but in my brushes with it I've often got the feeling that the whole concept of 'slash' is a sort of fetishization... There's that element of 'OMG, let's make them GAY, how adorable/clever/scandalous are we?!', and a huge disconnect between fantasy and the characters as, yeah, real people who are gay. Or even people who aren't gay, but feel an attraction that's outside of their usual experience. Or whatever.

It's always left a bad taste in my mouth, and it's refreshing to see someone tackle that particular angle. Thanks.

Think fucking twice about asking people to kiss for your amusement.

[stardragonca.livejournal.com]

Then think about it as many more times as it takes for it to seep into your thick noggin that that is not something that you ought to be doing.

[ali-wildgoose.livejournal.com]

Thanks for taking the time to write this. I always hope that 90% of the crap that goes on in fandom is thoughtlessness -- now I have another place to direct people when they're making an ass of themselves.

And ugh, I cannot...I apologize on the behalf of HUMANITY that you've had to put up with some of the bullshit described above! D:

[used_songs]

I'm going to join the chorus and say YES. THIS. I'm always astonished when people forget that we are real.