Oh Noes! There's Gay People In My Fandom!

[rm]

I want to preface this by saying that not only do I not have the solution, I'm having a hard time defining the problem, because it's more complex than it seems at first glance. I also want to preface this by saying I'm not interested in the misery olympics, nor do I speak for (or about) all fannish types or all queer folks who intersect with fandom. I'm also not interested in explaining Privilege 101 to anyone. Yes, I'm expecting a bit of awareness or prep work to ride this ride. (ETA: Since I am starting to get some comments that Don't Get It, let me direct you to: http://www.derailingfordummies.com/)

Let me also say that this isn't remotely as artful as it could or should be, because I'm sorta pissed off right now.

Fandom has a problem. It's about gender, sexual-orientation, arousal and privilege.

Facts as I see them:

- people write fanfic and create fanart and fanvids. Much of this content examines relationships emotionally and/or sexually. Some of this material reflects the canon relationships of programs, some doesn't. Some of this content reflects gay relationships, some straight, with a decent amount of "other" (poly, other-gendered, etc etc etc) thrown in.

- the relationship structures/types are, in some circles, viewed very much like a genre. Het or Slash becomes a genre as much as Romance or Horror does.

- through this relationship orientation/structure/type being viewed as a genre situation, a number of trends, some problematic, begin to occur. These largely seem to center around a disconnect between fiction and fantasy.

And that's where the following rant comes in:

Real, live queer people exist out there in the world and real, live queer people exist in fandom. And I am sick and tired of us being either something merely fetishized or relegated to a genre either appealing or not.

I am _not_ saying that het people shouldn't be writing slash (one unfortunate drama I've seen on the Internet lately), because hey, what turns you on, what interests you, no matter who you are, THAT'S PART OF YOUR SEXUAL AND EMOTIONAL IDENTITY TOO and I'm all for it.

But, for fuck's sake, if you're going to write slash, you don't get to do that and then say that real life homosexuality is immoral (yep, seen this one in fandom -- and yes, I'm looking at you, Harry Potter fandom) without there being repercussions in the sense of community disapproval.

You also might want to consider that going to a Gay Pride parade just to ogle same-sex couples kissing and not because the parade is fun or important or meaningful AND BRAGGING ABOUT IT, is also a bit outre (yep, seen this one in fandom recently too).

You might also want to take a step back from calling every random celebrity queer couple heroes for being out in places where it's largely safe to be out. I'm not saying it's not brave -- it's hard to be famous and gay and people still get bashed even in places like New York City. But, people have given up their lives in this struggle, and for those of us in the struggle, even if we're pretty privileged and haven't had to do the scary stuff (and for the record, I have been a target of anti-gay violence, harassment and rape threats; I've sat in the ER with friends who have been bashed) -- it's creepy when you call us heroes because you like watching us kiss/hold hands/fuck (yep, seen this one in fandom recently, and yeah, I'm looking at you Torchwood fandom). I am not a hero for turning you on, and neither in John Barrowman. Got it? Good.

Now, while we're at it, you might also wish to remember that while your fictional queer people may be posable dolls, real-life queer people aren't. Think fucking twice about asking people to kiss for your amusement, even if they've been perfectly willing to do it before because the gay people who aren't targets of that moment, who are sitting there in that room with you? It can make us feel like shit, because wow, wouldn't it be nice if you were as interested in our stories as our flesh? (And yes, seen this in fandom recently. Seen it at cons. Seen it towards celebrities, seen it towards cosplayers, seen people not get the difference between choosing to do something for one's own amusement as opposed to an audience. Had this shit directed at me, even by people I consider friends. NOT COOL, PEOPLE.)

And tangentally related to the above? Don't ask couples who the top is. Seriously. Don't. Fuck you. (and to continue on a theme, seen it in fandom, seen it directed at celebs, seen it directed at fans, had it directed at me -- why is it so hard to understand that just because someone will seemingly talk about anything you don't have a right to know anything you want? Also the simplification of gay sexuality into role a or role b is really fucking rude).

Now, you don't like slash? It's not your genre? It doesn't turn you on? THAT'S FINE and you're not being homophobic. The problems always start after that -- and those problems? Yeah, sometimes that is homophobia in action. Here's some shit you might want to think twice about doing:

- When you list stuff you don't like in fiction, try not to bookend references to homosexuality with things like horror, incest, rape, etc. Because that? That sure looks homophobic. (Hey fandom, this one happened YESTERDAY).

- When queer content isn't to your taste? Don't call it icky. (DOES NO ONE HAVE ANY COMMON SENSE? -- also yesterday in fandom)

- And seriously people, when there's a discussion about what categories are and are not included in an awards community or whatever, have enough of a clue to realize that heterosexual content is privileged in the media and that gay content isn't. Having awards for that limited amount of gay content in the mainstream media is not actually "the same sort of discrimination" as awards that purport to be for all content but that actively exclude gay content. (That was also this morning, fandom).

Advice in four words: PRIVILEGE - LOOK IT UP!


Look people, it's pretty simple. Slash is a word for a type of content that pairs two characters of the same gender together (the specificity of whether this means non-canon pairing or includes canon pairing is a debate, but not one relevant to this post), and you can feel pretty much any which way about it, I don't much happen to care -- because the issue here isn't sentiment, it's conduct.

But what slash means is that the content it applies to tells stories about gay people: what they do at work, what they argue about in the kitchen, what they feel in their hearts, and yes, often enough (because holy crap, the Internet is for porn) how they fuck.

The key words in the above sentence, in case you got distracted by the implication of curtains!fic or porn: "stories about gay people."

Gay people are real. We are in your fandom. We are very happy to be here. We are happy to exist in fandom content in a way we don't often in the original material content. We, and the fictional characters whose lives reflect our own to some small degree, get to have full lives here in a way we don't often get from ABC or NBC or CBS or the BBC or WHATEVER at 8pm and sadly for many of us, in a way we don't always get to have with our families or in our workplaces.

So stop treating us like we're fictional. Like that real gay people are inconveniences or blow-up dolls or just some weird, slightly novel, abstract idea.

It's rude, it's ignorant, and most importantly, it's boring. Knock it off.

Comments

[softestbullet (from livejournal.com)]

I think you defined the problem pretty well. :) Great, great post. I've seen way too much of this behavior.

[fizzyblogic.livejournal.com]

Here via metafandom, and oh my god THANK YOU. *hand motions* Yes. This.

[worldof-wonders.livejournal.com]

Thank you. You make the world less lonely.

[nostariel]

There is not enough WORD and THIS in the world for this post. ♥

[electricalgwen.livejournal.com]

Thanks for saying this so coherently and simply.

[missdeanna.livejournal.com]

Thank you for posting this.

I get conflicted when it comes to slash and fandom sometimes, because while there are plenty of people who are respectful sensible, there are also some who, uh, really aren't.

I think the way that fandom defines slash is something of a problem, too. Even though slash encompasses a wide range of fic and genres, there still seems to be an assumption that slash is inherently sexual or pornographic. Which is fine if we're talking about porn, but I hate to think that porn is the only possible representation of queer people and relationships. And assuming that a story about queer people is inherently pornographic is disturbing, just as it's disturbing in "real life" when Amazon.com or whatever group of the week decides that we're all x-rated by default. I'm surprised at how many people I encounter in fandom who, when I talk to them about slash, assume off the bat that we're talking about porn, even though I'm talking about any story featuring queer characters or themes. I don't blame them, because I think it's what they've been exposed to. I'm glad that there's porn out there, but I wish there was more awareness about what slash can encompass.

I guess if people are only exposed to a sexualized, fantasy version of queerness, it's not surprising for the lack of awareness to carry over to real people.

[bodlon.livejournal.com]

As always, you've managed to really nail a lot of things for me in a really tiny space. It's sort of weird to see all the things I do like about fan fiction in such proximity to the things I don't, and to the areas I worry about when I write/review.

I keep coming back to a thing that happened partway through IEIT, where someone left me a comment asking about a particular bit of sex I'd written, and said something to the effect of how it made sense for one of the characters to bottom because it was "punishment."

To which I was very much like, "Um, qua?"

This was a reader who, as far as I could tell, consumed slash pretty regularly, but had somehow never had that view (which apparently she'd picked up via osmosis from the straight men in her life) that a man on the receptive end of penetrative sex was automatically demeaned, and that the act isn't pleasurable.

To which I said again, "No, really. Qua?! And you're reading my stuff why?!"

I think in a lot of ways I take it for granted that fandom is a safer, more enlightened space. Part of that is the fact that I'm still relatively new to it, and part of it is that I've managed to cultivate really exceptional friendships with people who either a) already get it, often even more than I do, or b) are sincerely interested in respectful ways. It always stuns me to encounter people to whom neither of these points apply.

[rm.livejournal.com]

Then you're going to just love that I have a new rant brewing about the casualness with which people say "I'm a lesbian in a man's body/I'm a gay man in a woman's body" because yup, totally know some trans and genderqueer people about which said descriptions are accurate, but mostly I know a lot of straight cis-gendered people who need to stop saying that. Also, being a tomboy does not equal automatic genderqueer or trans free pass to saying whatever the fuck one pleases. It even shows up in some of the comments to this post a lot. *sigh*

[dreamrequiem.livejournal.com]

Wow...people actually write fanfic about homosexual relationships and then disapprove of gays in real life? That's unbelievable. Wtf?

[glass-icarus.livejournal.com]

thanks for this post! there isn't enough YES and WORD in the world.

[phisinfinity.livejournal.com]

The way you address fandom as "Fandom" makes me really really really want you to be the host of a Stephen Colbert-ish satire addressing, well, fandom. I would totes watch the shit out of it.

I always enjoy hearing actual GLTB views on fandom conduct and fandom in general. While there's something horribly depressing about realizing that for some godawful reason people actually HAVE to be reminded to treat people like people, I'm also glad that people actually step up and say what needs to be said in a very down-to-earth and clear manner like you've done above. It's like a gay handbook, of sorts, and I wish/hope more people actually read it and keep all you've said in mind; not just for the gay people in fandom, but for pretty much everyone everywhere. It's a strangely overlooked rule.

[eugenetapdance.livejournal.com]

Someone recently linked me to this post after I discussed some remarks someone had made about being angry that the film version Brideshead Revisited did not include gay sex scenes.

Thank you for making this post. I'm a gay guy in the Watchmen fandom, and I encounter this a lot. (Apparently being openly gay + being in slash fandom = mistake.) I've been wanting to open a dialogue about this for a while now, but I'm worried I'll sound elitist and alienate the intelligent straight/bi female portion of my flist.

[rm.livejournal.com]

No no no, open a dialogue, or come over here to Torchwood fandom which has more men (of all orientations) doing trasformative stuff (costuming, fic writing, viding) than any fandom I've ever been in. It's a really refreshing environment for everyone because of it, eventhough, I still had to say all this shit, sadly enough -- because some contingents of the fandom Really Don't Get It.

But I'm blunt on the Internet so other people don't have to be.

wow that was very well said

[megiknit.livejournal.com]

I'm so new to the whole world of fanfic I'm blown away that people are quite that moronic...but wow...that wasvery well said :) kudos.

[uminomamori.livejournal.com]

People seriously do this stuff? I mean, I've heard some awful fandom stories but people reading/writing slash and then saying homosexuality is beyond me.

There is a line between fandom and real life some people just don't get (because they got into fandom before they learned common sense?) Asking random cosplayers you don't know to kiss is creepy/weird enough. If you'd be embarrassed if someone did something to you in public don't do it to an actor. If you wouldn't want someone doing it to you in front of your mother don't do it to someone else.

[thedilettante.livejournal.com]

Here via Cleolinda on twitter, and thank you for writing this post.


I'm tempted to ask for links to some of the instances of FAIL that I haven't seen before (asking who tops? really?) but it would probably break my brain further.

[piratefanatic.livejournal.com]

Wow. A world of yes and a world of thank you, both for what you said and for saying it.

[piratefanatic.livejournal.com]

Crap. That made more sense in my head. Trying again. Though I'd like to think I'm a reasonably level headed queer person in fandom, I (and others, I suspect) occasionally need reminding to back the fuck off with the fetishizing. Just because fic (and fandom in genral) can create a world filled with well established queerness, the rest of the universe is not so peachy or accepting, and the reminder than queerness isn't merely this fantastical, sexualized, Other thing is much needed.

Arg. Words are failing me, so I'll go back to my original sentiment: THANK YOU.

[colorfulshadows]

And tangentally related to the above? Don't ask couples who the top is. Seriously. Don't. ..... Also the simplification of gay sexuality into role a or role b is really fucking rude).

I wonder how much this blunder is influenced by yaoi. In yaoi, there is SUCH a strong emphasis on the top/bottom dynamic (it's how the mangas are defined, really) that you can't separate that from the characterizations or the story at all. It's a rare manga that doesn't address it head-on. However, rules in 'yaoiland' apply only to the unreal world of yaoi fiction and do not apply to real life. Frankly, thank god, because they are too structured and unrealistic and, honestly, sometimes way too silly for real life.

That said, if the blundering fangirl's introduction to slash is via yaoi, I can see where the fixation with top/bottom would come from. Like I said, it's a defining characteristic. Not that I'm defending her (and I use 'her' universally here) misconception. It's still wrong and rude and I'd hope like hell that any fangirl with a brain would realize that yaoi in no way reflects real people (god, I'd hope so anyway!).

Anyway, just a thought. It seems like, lately, thanks to the proliferation of translated yaoi manga targeted at teen girls, this could be their introduction to anything GLBTQ--which is a shame because while I love yaoi, it's the most unreal portrayal of gay men imaginable. It's also tied tightly to Japanese traditionalism, and that doesn't translate to Western dynamics very well either.

[pheep.livejournal.com]

Hurrah, this comment. A very good point. Personally, I was a total self-declared "otaku" through junior high and some of high school, and nowadays I'm definitely compelled by the slash aspects of most fandoms I enter -- but somehow, amazingly, my first exposure to slash was NOT through yaoi. And in that regard I view myself as unspeakably fortunate, because I think you're right: yaoi as a first impression of slash, of "stories about gay people", is a BAD IDEA and it's something that happens WAY TOO OFTEN. It's a crying shame that there are *so many girls* who unwittingly pick up a yaoi manga without any previous exposure to slash (and often not much exposure to gay culture outside fandoms either), since as a result of starting with yaoi, those girls tend to begin with some very warped, unrealistic, silly, sometimes disturbing and often offensive notions about how this whole slash/gay thing works, inside AND outside of fandom. And of course, they're often oblivious of the problem. These days I'm pretty much only involved in non-manga/anime fandoms, and yet I've definitely encountered a number of girls who view the slash in these fandoms through yaoi-tinted lenses. It's a trip.

Of course, the whole headache would be alleviated somewhat if more of those girls had parents who were comfortable enough with homosexuality to introduce their children to the concept in a healthy, levelheaded way. :\ Oh well.

[leggedxl.livejournal.com]

Good words!
But i would prefer to have been asked to kiss each other than to hit by stones, really.

[mirfainlasui.livejournal.com]

I wrote something relatively similar recently, after a friend of a friend got annoyed about ow much people were going on about prop 8 being upheld on twitter. She was saying it was just fashionable right now to hate on prop 8, and most of the people talking about it weren't even gay or from california so should't care. I didn't know her so could yell at her, but seriously? seriously? Only people can care about equal rights? Just because I'm not from California doesn't mean I can't be affected by this, because hey, what if one day I went to california and fell in love with a girl out there, then would it be allowed?

The other thing I said was that I get so annoyed by the indifference of people. I have a friend who reads slash, loves shows like queer as folk, loves it when gay musicians come out, re Adam Lambert but...when I would talk about gay rights or some issue I'd read recently in the room with her last year when we were living together she'd sigh and say she was fed up with me talking politics all the time. To her, gay was a form of entertainment, she doesn't care about real life rights as long as she could watch her hot gay boys kiss.

So...that was basicaly a long rambling way of saying wow, yes, I agree with this completely.

[laura47.livejournal.com]

right fucking on!

i can not get over the "i write slash but think homosexuality is immoral" one. never actually encountered it firsthand, thankfully. (though i do know someone IRL who apparently writes poly slashy stories but thinks non-monogamy is fucked up. fiik, some people's children).

thanks for writing this. i'll link to it, though thankfully i don't think any of my friends are this... ridiculous. i'm sorry you have to deal with this shit.

fandom, i love you, i think you're bat shit crazy.

[wee-warrior.livejournal.com]

So stop treating us like we're fictional. Like that real gay people are inconveniences or blow-up dolls or just some weird, slightly novel, abstract idea.

This.

Thank you.

[angeleyesjg24.livejournal.com]

Here via Cleolinda on her LJ. I just had to say that I really appreciate you saying this. Thank you.

I am not a hero for turning you on, and neither in John Barrowman. I just might have to turn that into an icon. Perfectly sums up the realization a lot of fangirls/boys need to come to. Well said.

[rm.livejournal.com]

Thank you. I was tickled that that was the line she used for the link, because it was the most off the cuff thing I said, but is sort of my favorite of the whole tirade.

Anyway, let me know if you do.

[renaissanced.livejournal.com]

I'm going to mem this, because it seriously needed to be said (and re-said, again and again). Fandom is not necessarily 'open minded' for allowing slash, especially when that slash is often just two hot people of the same sex stuck into otherwise hetero roles. :\

[renaissanced.livejournal.com]

Oh, also here by cleolinda

[rhoda-rants.livejournal.com]

Here by Cleolinda.

Gawd, I had no clue this was an issue. I haven't yet encountered anyone who's into the slash stuff and yet gets all squirrelly and icked-out by real life encounteres with gay folk, but now that I'm thinking about it, I'm not surprised.

I mean, girl-on-girl porn has been around for ages, but I have this odd, perhaps unfounded expectation for fanfic writers to know better. Perhaps it's because I see stories - all stories, no matter how fantastical or off-center - as reflections of the author's own sensibilities and points of view. I certainly write everything from that angle. I don't do much slash (anymore), but it never occurred to me that people would read it just for the titilation and not think about the larger issues.

So yes: You win. And no, it's not okay to ask gay people to make out for your entertainment. And while we're at it, it's ALSO not okay to assume that all bisexual females are into threesomes! For fuck's sake, we don't exist for your entertainment!

[internal666.livejournal.com]

Here after reading Cleolinda's post in my inbox, and all I have to say is this:

What the fucking fuck?

That statement doesn't make any sense does it? THAT'S WHAT I THINK ABOUT THE ENTIRE SUBJECT, the sheer levels of ignorance mentioned in this post boggles my mind.

I've got my own issues when it comes to my sexuality, and I've never been deeply involved in any Fandom. But I've always tried to associate myself with areas where there was a visible LGBT presence, I've run into very few idiots and all of them were just solo trolls that were quickly bashed and banhammered. But I've never encountered anything more severe than that.

But this makes me worried, even though I play a minor role in it I've always felt very free in Fandom, there have been bumps in the road. But nothing that ever made me feel wholly unwelcome.

Now I'm starting to wonder if I actually am.

[yukishiido.livejournal.com]

I thought this was a really interesting post, and I agree with a helluva lot of it, especially with it being obnoxious when people ask you who's the bottom/top. (Even more obnoxious when they insist, "No, you MUST be the bottom!" and things like that, when it's not that cut-and-dry.)

I can understand people finding same-sex things arousing, but seriously, to go to a Pride parade or something simply to watch guys make out is... rude. I can tolerate, "Oh, kiss for me, please?!" to an extent (simply because, sometimes people haven't been exposed to it), but... I agree that it can be very rude as well.

I've never seen anyone write slash and then say it's wrong. O_o that's... completely hypocritical!

I have to admit, I'm fairly curious about some of the things you mentioned; like, when some of it has happened ("yesterday in fandom" and things like that).
Thanks for this post. It was great!