quick CoE sundries

[rm]

I watched CoE again, this time with a group. I loved it even more. Eventually I'll watch it again, with just good friends or alone and wallow again, but today it was fun, and I got to look at it more critically and really enjoy it. I think it's good TV, although with some structural and plot issues. I think the performances were amazing. And most importantly, for my own feelings about it all, I no longer thing Ianto would be ashamed of the choices Jack eventually had to make -- but they would be very hard for him, what with his issues with his own father, Interesting shit.

Also interestnig shit? If you do a rewatch -- pay attention to the color themes on people's clothes -- they shift with aliances and group by family. I am not even kidding. It's GREAT.

Also, that cut on Ianto's face? Through all of at least one episode the cut and small trickle of blood form a lambda. For realz.

I've ranted about the bad behavior going on in this fandom towards creators right now before, but after the things I was told tonight, I feel like I need to say it again. Death threats? To BBC Wales? REALLY?

Look, art is not a democracy.

In fact, all stories start alone. And I say this as someone who writes collaboratively a lot. But all stories start alone. One voice, and then another and another - -whether these be the writers or the chracters of both. And then the story grows. But all stories start as an impulse that needs expression more than the silence and the dark.

When we play in fandom, we too are adding to the story. But stories are not a democracy, rather they are trees as well as shards and fragments. The idea that the fans should have a say in the creation of an original story someone or some team is creating sincerely appalls me. Because art is not a democracy and stories demand their space from the dark.

You don't have to like the stories that come forth. Don't have to play with them. Should be a critic and can completely toss out any canon you want. But those are your stories speaking out, and they don't have to be and shouldn't be anyone else's.

In fencing I learned all sorts of things, like that idea that everyone dies alone and everyone fights alone and everyone lives alone. It sounds bleak at first, but it's not. It's power. It's fact. It's simplicity. I learned the simplest thing is the hardest thing is the best thing. I learned that stories come to us alone.

I'm not saying you have to have liked the many turns CoE took, hell you can loathe it. I really do not care. But never, ever say that people don't have a right to tell their stories and never ever seek or threaten to silence those stories.

I am sad and I'm appalled and because I MAKE STUFF TOO (and to be clear, I don't just mean in a fannish capacity, but as a pro), I do find this personally problematic.

If you haven't seen James Moran's most recent blog post, you should: http://jamesmoran.blogspot.com/2009/07/stepping-back.html.

Also in Whoniverse news that some of you will care about, apparently GDL's one con appearance in the States for the rest of 2009 will be at Hurricaine Who.

Comments

[dancingbarefoot.livejournal.com]

Apparently the insane portion of fandom has taken it upon themselves to do the nutcase tango and it's more than likely going to shoot the rest of the fandom in the foot.

Seen that in about 3 other fandoms that i've enjoyed over the years. The luxury of fanfic writing is that ultimately you can create what you feel was missing in the other's writing. You get the choice to layer onto what exists and who knows, you just may find readers agreeing and adding onto that layer you did.

I have a friend on my friendslist who wrote in a bigbang for another fandom and had a similar complaint, the artist who was going to create the photo for her story began to tear the work apart, trying to get the writer to change around the whole piece (which sounds lovely btw)

Everything begins with an idea like you said and all we as readers or viewers have is the right to enjoy and ask questions of what we see. It doesnt give us the right to become morons. Its better to sit and try quiet protests to show feelings rather than become hooligans and destroy everything in the process.

[qthelights.livejournal.com]

I totally agree that what people have been doing is outrageous. I don't think anyone has the right to send death threats or silence stories. It's horrible and is not in any way acceptable from fans or people generally.

That said, art exists to provoke and I think asking questions, about the processes we use to create it, the relationship we have with our audiences, are important ones that we should ask, and not feel we are being ungrateful in doing so. Viewers - in any medium - are part of the process, and depending on who and what and how, sometimes very important ones.

My main problem with CoE is not the story they told, it's how they told it. For a variety of reasons. The affect that that has had and the reasoning behind it.

(though I am of course glad that some people do seem to like it, such as yourself. I just wish I could be one of them!)

[elionwyr.livejournal.com]

Thank you for the link to the blog.

And..*sputter-gasm*...McCoy's going to be in Orlando next month! "My" Doctor, in many ways...

AND Louise Jameson - my first Companion - in October! *wistful sigh*

[lolliejean.livejournal.com]

In fencing I learned all sorts of things, like that idea that everyone dies alone and everyone fights alone and everyone lives alone. It sounds bleak at first, but it's not. It's power. It's fact. It's simplicity. I learned the simplest thing is the hardest thing is the best thing. I learned that stories come to us alone.

I love this for all sorts of reasons unrelated to the fandom/writing etc. thing. So true.

[rm.livejournal.com]

Yeah, and I agree viewers are part of the process -- the critical process and the discussion afterwards. But the idea that the original creators should have served fans over what felt to them serving the story bothers me -- although this too is something we can disagree on.

I'm just getting more and more upset with the things I'm hearing about, both publically and through my own social network.

[kirby-crow.livejournal.com]

Iconage needed!

[qthelights.livejournal.com]

Oh I totally don't think that the creators should serve fans what they felt they ought to get. I've seen that happen in fandoms and it always goes terribly badly, the art absolutely suffers.

What I feel is that the creators served a story that deliberately hurt fans, and that they played on that purposefully. Which to me is a different issue, and not one about fans specifically, but about audiences generally.

But even more so than "discussion afterwards" in this situation, where we had two seasons previously, it was much more of a discussion throughout. A discussion that RTD and co ACTIVELY participated in. If the reason for doing this was to gain ratings, and not because they actually wanted to know how people felt and play to that, then that's really not cool. If they'd wanted all along to just make their series and do what they wanted solely as art, then that'd be fine, but the vibe I got, and that most people got, was that we were in it together.. which is why this turn of events has just slammed everyone from out of seemingly nowhere.

I think this probably goes back a lot to that discussion we were having the other day, about negotiating the fan/producer dynamic. In this case, I feel it was done really really badly.

That doesn't excuse people being assholes to anyone though.

[lefaym.livejournal.com]

pay attention to the color themes on people's clothes

Yeah, I absolutely loved the way that Alice's coat was exactly the same colour as Jack's.

I also keep on finding resonances between CoE and your work (even though I haven't been able to watch it again yet) -- I find it really interesting that the situation you created for Jack in your most recent one (the Jack/Gwen/Ianto one), actually mirrors the canon situation for Ianto (which has been seeded like WHOA in the tie-in materials, I'm really impressed with how they did that). The whole Ianto-as-conman thing really sheds a whole new light on the J/I relationship.

[lilacsigil.livejournal.com]

I commented somewhere else that maybe this was the first Big Fandom Death where the writer was so accessible? People like Joss Whedon, Jane Espenon and JKR, while fan-friendly, are not posting blogs with open comments, and Neil Gaiman's Twitter is obviously more recent than his Sandman work. Then again, I'm not in, say, BSG fandom, so maybe it is going on elsewhere.

And yes, art is not a democracy. Fandom and pro media are not the same thing, though there may be increasing overlap.

[drfardook.livejournal.com]

I really don't blame you for being upset and I completely agree with your assertion that art is not a democracy. Writing fan fiction always seemed like using someone else's starter when making bread. The first few loafs might have that certain quality of their bread but as time goes by its going to be more and more your bread. Yet the original is going to taste the same because its not in your kitchen, its their damn kitchen.

I'm not part of any fandom but that really upsets me as well. I don't even write fiction but this really gets on my nerves. My sympathies to Moran for having to deal with the brunt of the hate and to you and other in the community who had previously enjoyed being able to communicate with the man.

[thatwordgrrl.livejournal.com]

I think it becomes a dangerous thing for fandom to start presuming the mindset of the creators -- particularly negatively.

It runs the risk of putting a stranglehold on the ability of the creators to...well...create. To take chances and risks they might not otherwise do if they have to Think About the Fans every step of the way.

Fan feedback is a terrific thing. Fans dictating the creative process is not.

[kaffy_r]

I cannot begin to tell you how much the reaction to CoE from one segment of fandom has frustrated, angered, and completely croggled me. I realized, to my complete discomfort, that one member of my flist has been a very disturbing part of that reaction. The reaction of that person to suggestions of, oh, I don't know - civility? Understanding that a)it's art, and c) it's not bloody real life* - was even more upsetting. I've seriously thought about defriending, except that would give the person's attitude even more heft. Gah.

*with the understanding that art is, in fact, Very, Very Real, and that the Whoniverse is Very, Very Real. Except not. Except it is. I hope you might understand what I'm saying.

[rm.livejournal.com]

Yes. Totally.

[heron61.livejournal.com]

Look, art is not a democracy.

In fact, all stories start alone. And I say this as someone who writes collaboratively a lot. But all stories start alone. One voice, and then another and another - -whether these be the writers or the chracters of both. And then the story grows. But all stories start as an impulse that needs expression more than the silence and the dark.

When we play in fandom, we too are adding to the story. But stories are not a democracy, rather they are trees as well as shards and fragments. The idea that the fans should have a say in the creation of an original story someone or some team is creating sincerely appalls me. Because art is not a democracy and stories demand their space from the dark.

You don't have to like the stories that come forth. Don't have to play with them. Should be a critic and can completely toss out any canon you want. But those are your stories speaking out, and they don't have to be and shouldn't be anyone else's.

In fencing I learned all sorts of things, like that idea that everyone dies alone and everyone fights alone and everyone lives alone. It sounds bleak at first, but it's not. It's power. It's fact. It's simplicity. I learned the simplest thing is the hardest thing is the best thing. I learned that stories come to us alone.

I'm not saying you have to have liked the many turns CoE took, hell you can loathe it. I really do not care. But never, ever say that people don't have a right to tell their stories and never ever seek or threaten to silence those stories.

Well said indeed. I've heard more than enough to know that I have absolutely no interest in watching CoE, but that doesn't mean it's bad, much less evil, simply not remotely for me. I'm quite troubled by the bleak nihilism found in so much modern media, but CoE is merely one example among (IMHO far too) many.

[qthelights.livejournal.com]

I think to me it's not so much about fans, but viewers. And this is for any producers, not simply the Torchwood team. I *do* think that creators should have to keep their audiences in mind, NOT fans specifically. And it is dependent on the media in question - in a continuation of a series? They absolutely have to keep in mind the two series that came before it. They don't have to necessarily stick to what they did, but there should be some thought of what came before, and frankly, I didn't see that in CoE. Particularly when they're deliberately keeping how to get ratings in mind - and tell me *that* doesn't put a stranglehold on the act of creation. Because that's what happened, in my mind, in CoE.

But in Torchwood particular, I think the mindset of the creators was very much open to us, it was really touted as a creative collaboration in a way. Don't get me wrong, I love that. But not if it's used against me for shock value or ratings later on.

[bare-bear.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the link to James Moran's blog. I'm sort of hiding from most of the TW fandom at the moment to avoid all the crazy, so I've missed alot of these posts. When I have a bit more time, I'm going to poke around at his other posts. Sounds like they may have some interesting facts about the series.

Now that I think about it, it's probably not helping matters that the sane population is keeping quiet while the crazies spout off like they have been. Still, I have no patience for this.

I am quite glad that I stopped hiding long enough to send Mr. Moran an email a couple days ago telling him that I was impressed with the season. Heart-broken, but happy with how they delivered it. I figured he needed as much good feedback as possible to try to counter balance the bad.

[capulet-rose.livejournal.com]

Thumbs up to all.

My friend is hosting a CoE party tomorrow and I'm hoping to be able to hold myself together. I may be drunk by the time Day Three comes on though, and I do tend to be an emotional drunk.

CoE was fantastically written. Even though I was completely gutted by the time it ended I still wanted to give it a standing ovation. I may not have liked what they did at the time, but looking back on it all, it was necessary in order to lay the path for even more incredible story-lines in the future.

The place that Jack is in right now... I can't stop thinking about it! I'm reading a book on Buddhist philosophy and keep making notes in the margins on how I can tie it into Jack's storyline (I now fear lending this book out-- people will think I'm nuts!).

I've been disgusted by the crap that the "fans" have been spreading on Twitter and LJ. It's ridiculous. I lost two real friends to actual murder and still managed to remain more composed than some of these trolls have.

Enough is enough already!

Keep on keeping the sanity, love.

You're doing some good work on these here internets!

[cookiedough.livejournal.com]

pay attention to the color themes on people's clothes -- they shift with aliances and group by family. I am not even kidding. It's GREAT.

I noticed this also - Ianto and Rhiannon in the park, and Alice's lady-version of Jack's coat.

[valancy-joy.livejournal.com]

"pay attention to the color themes on people's clothes -- they shift with aliances and group by family. I am not even kidding. It's GREAT."

so TRUE. also... when I rewatch it again I want to really look at the use of the color yellow. it's everywhere as a sort of counterpoint/accent color...

[5251962.livejournal.com]

I had this experience, as well. The morning after effect rippled through- some people were going, "Wow that's some awesome tv" and others were just freaked out, but one in particular was absolutely..well it went beyond ranting about a show not going the way they wanted.
I was really baffled.

[stardragonca.livejournal.com]

But never, ever say that people don't have a right to tell their stories and never ever seek or threaten to silence those stories.
This. This is the whole of 21st century politics summed up in a single sentence.

[laufeyette.livejournal.com]

I was curious when I read this comment and scanned your friends page. That person is ridiculous, dude. There is no reason, no rationale to justify the violence that person claims they would execute if only they were physically able. That type of thinking is deeply dangerous. You should have no qualms about defriending, IMO.

Everyone dies alone and everyone fights alone and everyone lives alone.

[stardragonca.livejournal.com]

We are all alone. We are all alone together.

[madambackslash.livejournal.com]

Also interestnig shit? If you do a rewatch -- pay attention to the color themes on people's clothes -- they shift with aliances and group by family. I am not even kidding. It's GREAT.

I found myself what was up as soon as I saw Ianto in that white shirt.

I'm working up the courage for a rewatch. I don't think it'll be this week.

[cruentum.livejournal.com]

I enjoyed CoE a shitload. Am in the process of rewatching right now. Like you I have some issues with some of the structuring of the plot, some of the plot decisions in detail where it seems a bit straining at the seams to get to a point, but I enjoyed what they did with this, a lot.

[thatwordgrrl.livejournal.com]

There is a particular TV show -- I cannot say I'm an avid fan, but I do watch. Last season's finale "shocker" really seemed to have been nothing more than a ratings stunt gone badly awry.

The guilty act was dreadfully out of character for the person to whom the deed was assigned. The motivation for them doing the dead was equally so.

In short -- it jumped the shark with that ep.

That being said...I have no business demanding the creators apologize, grovel, give me their head on a platter or not have done it in the first place (MUCH as I would have preferred the guilty party to be a different character for whom I don't care). None of those are options I get to have as the viewer/fan.

Now I can discuss and critique the creator's choices. I can even whinge and bitch about how wrong I felt they were about it. I can simply decide not to watch any more.

But I don't get to insist the creator did me wrong personally after the fact and demand they make amends for it. That's carrying the collaborative process too far.

[kaffy_r]

"But I don't get to insist the creator did me wrong personally after the fact and demand they make amends for it. That's carrying the collaborative process too far."

Bada-bing, bada-BOOM! You've hit it on the frakkin' nose!

[kaffy_r]

Yeah, it says something about the nature - or multiple natures - of artistic/fannish investment. For various squicky powers of investment.

[kaffy_r]

After having slept on it, and remembered a couple of non-fannish things going on in that person's life that could tangentially be exacerbating the reaction, I decided against defriending, but I'm definitely not going to read any Torchwood-related posts therefrom.

[thatwordgrrl.livejournal.com]

I have been reminded of a brilliant quote from the brilliant Mel Brooks in the brilliant film The Producers by way of the character of Franz Liebkind (played by the brilliant Kenneth Mars):

"I am ze author! You are ze audience! I outrank you!"

[oncomingscone.livejournal.com]

I'm with you on that. TW has hit themes of loss for me and my personal losses in life and I find it very painful, but the degree to which these people are taking this... kind of wish the 456 operated on 'hostile fan' frequencies rather than 'child' frequencies. Or is that very mean of me?

[observer3.livejournal.com]

I find your observations insightful. I truly enjoyed CoE and plan to re watch it. The idea that people would threaten another just because of a simple story line is wrong...I wonder they are thinking....