and on another subject, but related to queer fetishization

[rm]

http://ausiellofiles.ew.com/2009/07/backlash-shmacklash-thats-torchwood-creator-russell-t-davies-reaction-to-the-outcry-over-the-death-of-gareth-david-lloyds.html#

I know many people in fandom are pissed about this interview.

But you know what? I fucking love it, because what I do think he's taking aim at in the thing about "go watch Supernatural" and the paragraph that follows on from there, I think he's talking about the fetishizaton of gay characters by parts of the audience and some of the nasty pop-psychology out there from people who really haven't walked even an inch in anyone's big gay shoes. Now sure, those people aren't all of fandom, and no one likes to be lumped in with clueless people they really disagree with, but so it goes.

For me, it's hat tip to RTD time. I don't always agree with his writing choices or his thoughts on writing, but I largely loved CoE, and am writing both Ianto is dead and Ianto isn't dead stuff, and think his remarks on this theme are right fucking on.

(and for the record, I don't think Ianto was fridged either. Jack's ongoing lovers are going to die, and, while he works for Torchwood, probably young and violently. If we expect to see omnisexual Jack having relationships with men, we have to expect those men to meet nasty ends in service to the dilemma of Jack's existence).

(and for the additional record, we can disagree and respect each other, because this is, among other things, about how we care about stories, and that's fucking lovely)

Comments

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

You don't find it annoying or suck up-y that I agree with you on Fannish stuff, do you?

[rm.livejournal.com]

Not in the least. I'm like "I AM NOT ALONE...."

[dr-is-in.livejournal.com]

I don't always agree with how he says stuff, but you have to admit he's got style, not to mention the balls to say what he does. I think he's a bastard half the time but I have to give him credit for sticking by what he says and not waffling about it.

[brewsternorth.livejournal.com]

I saw a quote from that interview on friendsfriends about the fetishization thing, and thought, "dang, I may take issues with RTD now and again, I'm not even particularly fond of his Public Persona, but he's on the money here".

A DW-associated writer on my flist has also approved this particular interview very enthusiastically, which unfortunately is leading to negative reactions from hir not-so-RTD-friendly flisties.

[mellacita.livejournal.com]

I agree with this. I have remarked in the past how I am half in awe of him at times, just for the gumption and self-assurance and willingness to say what he thinks. But it can rub the wrong way, too. I put a lot of thought and analysis and reflection into deciding how I felt about COE, what I loved, what I didn't, what hurt good and what hurt bad. To be dismissed or diagnosed as just another silly person who just doesn't like happy couples and/or doesn't live in the real world and/or fetishizes a same sex couple (by RTD, not directing this at you, rm) is a little saddening.

[rednwhiterose.livejournal.com]

Thank you for your opinion. It's nice to have it on my flist, I don't realize that I need to be talked down off my knee-jerk, emotional reaction until I ready your response to something like this.

[starstealingirl.livejournal.com]

Eh. I'm of two minds about it. On the one hand, I think he correctly points to the gay fetishization fail that so often happens in fandom. On the other, as someone who is familiar with his oeuvre outside of DW/TW, and who has walked several miles in big gay shoes, and was still upset about Ianto's death, I think he paints all upset fans with the same brush here. Some of us actually do care beyond watching pretty boys kiss, and I kind of resent being stereotyped.

[rm.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the general dismissiveness of fandom is marginally annoying, but I guess I sorta don't care the way he doesn't care about from the end of it. I think it's a legitimate thing to be cranky about that and god knows I feel like I'm losing my mind for the amount of energy I've spent trying to explain that I am both aok with CoE and more gutted than I can possibly describe by it. So yeah... I'm not that person either. I know that. I don't feel like I need RTD to know that, but I'm not sure why, and totally get how other people's mileage may vary.

[count-to-seven.livejournal.com]

I have to admit I did love his reaction to the "de-gay pressure" question.

[laughingacademy.livejournal.com]

Okay, this interview made me go hee, particularly the bit where he says, “If you were only in it for Teh Prettie, check out this other show, because phwoar.”

But them I remember the AfterElton interview and my blood pressure skyrockets.

Now, maybe we aren’t getting the whole story there, perhaps he made observations on how "Day Four" worked in the context of Ianto’s arc that didn’t make it into the article, but as the interview currently stands RTD is boasting about his shiny new kitchen appliance.

[redstapler.livejournal.com]

Thanks a lot. I just got an image of Jack Harkness as a Green Lantern. @_@

[thessalian.livejournal.com]

I suppose it's down to how you read it. If you didn't freak out personally at him and demand that he bring back your pretty-boy-snogathon because that's all Torchwood is to you (and I am more than a little sure you didn't), then I seriously doubt he was addressing you. He did expect people to be upset over the death - he nodded to that when saying it was gratifying to see the reaction because it meant people connected with the character and that's what every author shoots for - but he didn't expect it to be "OMG YOU SUNK MY OTP!", and has no sympathy for people who have shunted aside a lot of hard storytelling for the sake of two pretty men kissing.

[valancy-joy.livejournal.com]

*snort* I kinda came down in the camp of pissed off about it, but I can see your point/pov on it.

but I am sorta down with his "don't get your panties in a twist it's only a tv show" attitude.

It was his breezy dismissiveness of fandom (which of course I peronalize to ME) that irked me.

(but then there's that corner of fandom that's making those brecon cannibals look sensible, so it's not like there's not crazy out there to deal with.)

[smirnoffmule.livejournal.com]

Ha ha, I wonder the same. I have this little internal voice saying rm is so gonna get sick of you just commenting on her entries going WORD...

But. Yeah. Word. I liked this interview - I get what he's saying, and I don't think he's being an arse, I think he's being funny, and while I have every sympathy for anyone who has mourned this character (because god knows, I have) I can understand how it looks from his POV, especially with the kind of uncool language and vitriol flying around.

[darthhellokitty.livejournal.com]

Oh my, thanks for that last link! I didn't realize that sort of thing had a name.

[tod-hollykim.livejournal.com]

What cracked me up was the question from one of Ausiello's readers if he was under pressure to "de-gay" the show.

That had to be from an American! Did that person have any idea that Torchwood is a UK show?

Last night was an amazing episode. I was sorry to see Ianto die, but I also understood why it was an important part of the story.

[brewsternorth.livejournal.com]

Did that person have any idea that Torchwood is a UK show?

Eh, I think there's still conservatism and fear of taking things *too* far in UK telly. The extent may be less than in US broadcasting by now, but it's still there.

[isil-helyanwe.livejournal.com]

Hey, I just wanted to say thanks so much for all these fandom posts. I don't really comment a lot because as a straight girl I feel sort of uninformed about a lot of the issues you're talking about, but at the same time it's been so educational and incredibly interesting to be able to see the multiple issues which come up when sexuality is explored in fandom.

(That whole thing sounded a lot less gushy in my head...)

[wolfchylde.livejournal.com]

The events in CoE left me and my hubby really devastated, but at no point did we ever even conceive any of the (omfg retarded) theories as to WHY Ianto died. In a kind of way, we applauded the reality that yes, people die, and sometimes the people you want MOST to not die are the ones who are indeed going to bite the bullet.

While I WISH Ianto wasn't the one who had to die, but I also applaud RTD for making it such a powerful, painful, and emotionally gripping death. Unfortunately, I expected a lot of the backlash, and I absolutely LOVE RTD's take on it.

Now if they'd just show more naked Rhys and Ianto's brother in law, that'd make ME happy. (Snogging prettyboys are cool n all, but there are many of us out there who enjoy seeing the beefy brit boys as well!) And while the CoE format worked well for the story and the series, I really think it's not wise to try and redo that experience. They ought to bring back Torchwood with another full series and try to take some of the bleak edge off the show initially (we don't want to get too depressing now, do we?)

[laughingacademy.livejournal.com]

He would totally rock the spandex, but I don’t think that’s his best color.

[starstealingirl.livejournal.com]

I understand your perspective, and partially agree. But I still stand by my ambivalence.

I think a lot of it has to do with my feeling that RTD mistakenly thinks people watch Torchwood for the "hard storytelling." I agree that the storytelling got better during CoE; however, had storytelling been the main draw of the show, I'd never have come back to it after the first series. (I think we can all agree that, while the storytelling got better over time, a lot of it left much to be desired.) I watched because there were some compelling characters-- particularly Ianto-- and because the actors did a hell of a job even with the frequently lackluster storytelling. Sacrificing characters to plot does not, from my perspective, seem like a worthy sacrifice.

So a lot of my frustration with him, and with this death, has to do with my impression that he's not fully aware what makes this show tick. And because I always resent it when the author of a show tells me how I should interpret the decisions he or she makes with the plot. I think that a) I have some fairly legitimate, non-fetishizing reasons for not agreeing with his decisions, and b) more importantly, as an author of any piece of popular culture, you have to know and accept that your fans will produce interpretations of your work that are widely different from your own. And his reduction of all fan anger toward his decisions in CoE to this one issue of fetishizing boys kissing strikes me as reductive, dismissive, and arrogant.

Sorry. TL;DR. One of these days I'll learn to be concise. Today is evidently not that day. =)

[kalichan.livejournal.com]

As someone who loves SPN, and thinks that it was absolutely fine that Ianto died, I have to say, that was the most offensive part of that interview for me. Because, yo, HIS story is the way it is and FUCK YOU, but if you don't like it, go watch SPN for the WINCEST. Which he ships? ("And don’t tell me they’re brothers. [Laughs] Not in my mind.")

Oookay, Rusty. I'm sorry, but Wincest is something that the authors of that show feel very strongly isn't so; they indulge it and think it's funny, but they are very clearly, telling a story about non-sexual, familial love. Again, it's his own perception that HE IS THE ONLY WRITER IN THE WHOLE WORLD that really gets my goat. Clearly, ymmv.

For the rest, I still love RTD somewhere in there, I just happen to also think he's can be delusional. "I am a fan, but fans are stupid. Gay people can't be happy because no one likes... happy people?" Er. Okay. Take that enormous check and go get some therapy, Rusty, honey, okay? And try not to burn down any more shows on the way out, hmmm? Then, call me in the morning - is pretty much where I'm at.

[thessalian.livejournal.com]

Hey, I do not grudge you your ambivalence; I get where it's coming from. I have my own reasons for agreeing with his decisions (Ianto was all about trying to get Jack to be the 'better person' that Ianto needed him to be, and Jack was willing to go along with that mostly because he was getting sick of being the morally ambivalent guy who was little better than Captain John, and he'd have never done what he did in Day 5 if Ianto was still alive because he never wanted Ianto to think less of him and even if Jack had never seen Ianto again, Ianto would know...) but I can see where others differ. Still don't think Davies was addressing them, but again, it's all in how you read it and you're within your rights to feel bad about it. I think it was just poor phrasing and a touch of arrogance and defensiveness on Davies' part.

[laughingacademy.livejournal.com]

*sigh* I wish it wasn’t popular enough to merit one.

[laughingacademy.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the Fans dislike Gwen & Rhys + Gwen & Rhys are happy = Fans hate happiness bit...what? WHAT!?

I’m going to give myself an ulcer at this rate.