and on another subject, but related to queer fetishization

[rm]

http://ausiellofiles.ew.com/2009/07/backlash-shmacklash-thats-torchwood-creator-russell-t-davies-reaction-to-the-outcry-over-the-death-of-gareth-david-lloyds.html#

I know many people in fandom are pissed about this interview.

But you know what? I fucking love it, because what I do think he's taking aim at in the thing about "go watch Supernatural" and the paragraph that follows on from there, I think he's talking about the fetishizaton of gay characters by parts of the audience and some of the nasty pop-psychology out there from people who really haven't walked even an inch in anyone's big gay shoes. Now sure, those people aren't all of fandom, and no one likes to be lumped in with clueless people they really disagree with, but so it goes.

For me, it's hat tip to RTD time. I don't always agree with his writing choices or his thoughts on writing, but I largely loved CoE, and am writing both Ianto is dead and Ianto isn't dead stuff, and think his remarks on this theme are right fucking on.

(and for the record, I don't think Ianto was fridged either. Jack's ongoing lovers are going to die, and, while he works for Torchwood, probably young and violently. If we expect to see omnisexual Jack having relationships with men, we have to expect those men to meet nasty ends in service to the dilemma of Jack's existence).

(and for the additional record, we can disagree and respect each other, because this is, among other things, about how we care about stories, and that's fucking lovely)

Comments

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

You don't find it annoying or suck up-y that I agree with you on Fannish stuff, do you?

[rm.livejournal.com]

Not in the least. I'm like "I AM NOT ALONE...."

[dr-is-in.livejournal.com]

I don't always agree with how he says stuff, but you have to admit he's got style, not to mention the balls to say what he does. I think he's a bastard half the time but I have to give him credit for sticking by what he says and not waffling about it.

[mellacita.livejournal.com]

I agree with this. I have remarked in the past how I am half in awe of him at times, just for the gumption and self-assurance and willingness to say what he thinks. But it can rub the wrong way, too. I put a lot of thought and analysis and reflection into deciding how I felt about COE, what I loved, what I didn't, what hurt good and what hurt bad. To be dismissed or diagnosed as just another silly person who just doesn't like happy couples and/or doesn't live in the real world and/or fetishizes a same sex couple (by RTD, not directing this at you, rm) is a little saddening.

[brewsternorth.livejournal.com]

I saw a quote from that interview on friendsfriends about the fetishization thing, and thought, "dang, I may take issues with RTD now and again, I'm not even particularly fond of his Public Persona, but he's on the money here".

A DW-associated writer on my flist has also approved this particular interview very enthusiastically, which unfortunately is leading to negative reactions from hir not-so-RTD-friendly flisties.

[rednwhiterose.livejournal.com]

Thank you for your opinion. It's nice to have it on my flist, I don't realize that I need to be talked down off my knee-jerk, emotional reaction until I ready your response to something like this.

[starstealingirl.livejournal.com]

Eh. I'm of two minds about it. On the one hand, I think he correctly points to the gay fetishization fail that so often happens in fandom. On the other, as someone who is familiar with his oeuvre outside of DW/TW, and who has walked several miles in big gay shoes, and was still upset about Ianto's death, I think he paints all upset fans with the same brush here. Some of us actually do care beyond watching pretty boys kiss, and I kind of resent being stereotyped.

[rm.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the general dismissiveness of fandom is marginally annoying, but I guess I sorta don't care the way he doesn't care about from the end of it. I think it's a legitimate thing to be cranky about that and god knows I feel like I'm losing my mind for the amount of energy I've spent trying to explain that I am both aok with CoE and more gutted than I can possibly describe by it. So yeah... I'm not that person either. I know that. I don't feel like I need RTD to know that, but I'm not sure why, and totally get how other people's mileage may vary.

[count-to-seven.livejournal.com]

I have to admit I did love his reaction to the "de-gay pressure" question.

[laughingacademy.livejournal.com]

Okay, this interview made me go hee, particularly the bit where he says, “If you were only in it for Teh Prettie, check out this other show, because phwoar.”

But them I remember the AfterElton interview and my blood pressure skyrockets.

Now, maybe we aren’t getting the whole story there, perhaps he made observations on how "Day Four" worked in the context of Ianto’s arc that didn’t make it into the article, but as the interview currently stands RTD is boasting about his shiny new kitchen appliance.

[redstapler.livejournal.com]

Thanks a lot. I just got an image of Jack Harkness as a Green Lantern. @_@

[valancy-joy.livejournal.com]

*snort* I kinda came down in the camp of pissed off about it, but I can see your point/pov on it.

but I am sorta down with his "don't get your panties in a twist it's only a tv show" attitude.

It was his breezy dismissiveness of fandom (which of course I peronalize to ME) that irked me.

(but then there's that corner of fandom that's making those brecon cannibals look sensible, so it's not like there's not crazy out there to deal with.)

[tod-hollykim.livejournal.com]

What cracked me up was the question from one of Ausiello's readers if he was under pressure to "de-gay" the show.

That had to be from an American! Did that person have any idea that Torchwood is a UK show?

Last night was an amazing episode. I was sorry to see Ianto die, but I also understood why it was an important part of the story.

[brewsternorth.livejournal.com]

Did that person have any idea that Torchwood is a UK show?

Eh, I think there's still conservatism and fear of taking things *too* far in UK telly. The extent may be less than in US broadcasting by now, but it's still there.

[isil-helyanwe.livejournal.com]

Hey, I just wanted to say thanks so much for all these fandom posts. I don't really comment a lot because as a straight girl I feel sort of uninformed about a lot of the issues you're talking about, but at the same time it's been so educational and incredibly interesting to be able to see the multiple issues which come up when sexuality is explored in fandom.

(That whole thing sounded a lot less gushy in my head...)

[wolfchylde.livejournal.com]

The events in CoE left me and my hubby really devastated, but at no point did we ever even conceive any of the (omfg retarded) theories as to WHY Ianto died. In a kind of way, we applauded the reality that yes, people die, and sometimes the people you want MOST to not die are the ones who are indeed going to bite the bullet.

While I WISH Ianto wasn't the one who had to die, but I also applaud RTD for making it such a powerful, painful, and emotionally gripping death. Unfortunately, I expected a lot of the backlash, and I absolutely LOVE RTD's take on it.

Now if they'd just show more naked Rhys and Ianto's brother in law, that'd make ME happy. (Snogging prettyboys are cool n all, but there are many of us out there who enjoy seeing the beefy brit boys as well!) And while the CoE format worked well for the story and the series, I really think it's not wise to try and redo that experience. They ought to bring back Torchwood with another full series and try to take some of the bleak edge off the show initially (we don't want to get too depressing now, do we?)

[kalichan.livejournal.com]

As someone who loves SPN, and thinks that it was absolutely fine that Ianto died, I have to say, that was the most offensive part of that interview for me. Because, yo, HIS story is the way it is and FUCK YOU, but if you don't like it, go watch SPN for the WINCEST. Which he ships? ("And don’t tell me they’re brothers. [Laughs] Not in my mind.")

Oookay, Rusty. I'm sorry, but Wincest is something that the authors of that show feel very strongly isn't so; they indulge it and think it's funny, but they are very clearly, telling a story about non-sexual, familial love. Again, it's his own perception that HE IS THE ONLY WRITER IN THE WHOLE WORLD that really gets my goat. Clearly, ymmv.

For the rest, I still love RTD somewhere in there, I just happen to also think he's can be delusional. "I am a fan, but fans are stupid. Gay people can't be happy because no one likes... happy people?" Er. Okay. Take that enormous check and go get some therapy, Rusty, honey, okay? And try not to burn down any more shows on the way out, hmmm? Then, call me in the morning - is pretty much where I'm at.

[laughingacademy.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the Fans dislike Gwen & Rhys + Gwen & Rhys are happy = Fans hate happiness bit...what? WHAT!?

I’m going to give myself an ulcer at this rate.

[oncomingscone.livejournal.com]

I agree with you. When I first heard there was an interview and that people were furious about his comments I thought all Hell had broken loose. But I think this interview's fine. I think he misunderstands the fandom but he probably has other things to do.

I do wish I could stop feeling like someone I loved died, though, coz it kinda stings.

[svollga.livejournal.com]

I agree AND disagree with you at the same time. On the one hand, I absolutely love RTD for having the balls to say things like this (and to do it while he's on a thin ice, because he stopped being the Doctor Who God, left BBC UK and moved to LA, where I suppose he'll face a lot of challenges w hich I suppose was the point of moving). I also like that he, being a fan himself, does NOT indulge every fan's fantazy in his works, out of solidarity. And yes, talking about the fetishizaton of gay characters.
On the other hand, I don't like the fact the he seems to include a significant part of the fandom in this category. The man who talks in his works and in his own words so often of 'people and their labels', now puts a label on a large and very varying group. I understand that he has more things to do than follow whatever is going online, but still, this dismissive attitude makes me somewhat uncomfortable.
I also don't like that he himself moves the question to the sphere of sexualizing the relationship. It wasn't sex we wanted to see, we had our fair share of janto sexing on screen, thank you very much. It was the development of this difficult and beautiful relationship.

P.S.: You know, you give me just the right thinking material. I'm writing comments to your posts, and then I go and copy them to my own journal because I've expressed just the very thoughts/feelings I've had all day but couldn't put into words.

[songspinner9.livejournal.com]

He may be abrasive, but he's right. Some of the fussing and wailing and accusations were clearly people who had their own lens they look through - and that's all they see. RTD wrote characters who were NOT just one thing, not just gay or lesbian, not seen just as the man or woman (or alien), not just as good or bad. That's why I like watching. And it's the writers' show, not the fans. We can write what fanfic we want to, and that's fine, but Ianto was fated to die from the start (I love that Gareth keeps pointing out that the writers had Ianto die and changed their mind more than once!). Jack is never going to have someone who lives as long as he does, not even, ironically, the Doctor.

[better-late24.livejournal.com]

To be honest, I had a hard time even getting that as one of his points in between being condescending. He may have said valid things, but the tone (as much as you can construe through text) was very repellent.

Also, if it was a het pairing I was into, I'd be just as sad. This just happens to be more grating because the slash pairings I like tend not to be canon...I don't get to see them take place on screen. It was nice, while it lasted.

That said, yeah, there are some fans taking it entirely too far. My impression of the interview was still to think he was an ass.

[lefaym.livejournal.com]

I kind of have mixed feelings about the Supernatural comment. I totally see what you're saying here about fetishisation, and in some ways I also saw it as RTD accepting that people will move on from Torchwood because of this -- he's NOT saying that fans are stupid if they no longer feel like watching Torchwood, that there are other shows out there. And that's cool.

But, on a personal level, it rubs me the wrong way because ultimatley, I don't really care about Sam and Dean Winchester. Lots of people might do so, and that's great, but it was Jack and Ianto that I found interesting. And sure, I wrote and read a lot of porn about them, but ultimately, I wouldn't have cared to if it wasn't for the underlying relationship with all its complexities and fucked up nuances. And that story between Jack and Ianto never got resolved. I know RTD said in the After Elton interview that that lack of resolution add to the tragedy, but in my mind, it simply makes for a less satisfying story -- a less satisfying tragedy. And on that level "go watch Supernatural" just doesn't work.

[kel-reiley.livejournal.com]

i don't like his general dismissive tone about fans, as if all of them are exactly the same - we're not just a bunch of heads attached to one body - but i repsect what he's done for gay/lesbian/queer content in media since QaF hit 10 years ago

and even though i didn't like it, this is the story he wanted to tell and he told it

[cleverthylacine]

I think he was a much better writer for QaF than for anything SFnal. :/ He really likes mundane problems and family drama and parent issues and all of that stuff I'd rather not have quite so much of in Dr Who.

[telesilla.livejournal.com]

I don't know, maybe you have to be a Torchwood fan? Because as someone who isn't into Torchwood but IS a gay fan, that interview struck me as being condescending, dismissive and arrogant.

[fajrdrako.livejournal.com]

I like your comments. I liked RTD's comments, too.

I largely loved CoE, and am writing both Ianto is dead and Ianto isn't dead stuff, and think his remarks on this theme are right fucking on.

That's the way I feel. I feel we've been given a lot of substance to play with - far more than we get with most shows.

we can disagree and respect each other, because this is, among other things, about how we care about stories, and that's fucking lovely

And makes it such a rich fandom, in so many ways.

[kaffy_r]

Thanks for linking to the interview. The more I read about, and from, this guy, the more he makes me grin.

He's half Coyote, I think, at least when it comes to interviews. Maybe that's the best way to think of him, (not Loki, mind; just Coyote); that makes it easier, and maybe more advisable, to listen to the feel of the words and not the words themselves. If that makes any sense.

Just a couple of other things:

Firstly, I got no feeling of disrespect for the fans from RTD as I read his words. They were far more reflective, for me, of that complicated twist of feelings that siblings have for each other.

Secondly, earlier today I happened to jump briefly to a different post about the RTD interview. The writer hated the interview, and repeatedly employed a particular slang term in the post, using it as a description of RTD and of RTD's writing and the interview in general. The term is specifically, rudely, anatomical and refers only to female genitalia. Now I may be overly sensitive, but my first thought was "Hey there, poster-person! Do you dislike women so much that you can think of using no other word than this as your idea of utmost opprobrium? Congratulations on tangling the gender/sexuality/self-identification threads even more than they'd been already in this here already confused discussion! Care to muddy some water, too?"

Thirdly, WORD. I forgot to say this earlier about your words.

[fide-et-spe.livejournal.com]

I really really hate this interview. I absolutely don't give a toss that he thinks fans aren't the main viewers, that they are unimportant, whatever. However someone who has some manners would be polite enough just to be a little gracious about it. Why be so condescending and pompous. Gosh, fans are so stupid, they can type, but, you know, need to be told about poetry.

It strikes me that the average person reading your journal is above average in education. We may have even read some poetry. We may be interested in more than pretty boys. It really wouldn't kill him to be a little nice, and just say that he understands why people feel upset, and he appreciates how much they love his show, leave it at that. I also find it ironic that on the same day the saveiantojones people made the news with their fund raising, and why not? Who are they harming? and I think if he reacts to them with this attitude, after £2k being raised for children in need, then he will look like more than just arrogant, he will look like a real bastard. However according to him they are doing nothing, just typing, and really are very stupid.

It stretched my brain, but I have managed to read some poetry, and T.S Eliot's The Hollow Men keeps coming to mind.

[coffee-kris.livejournal.com]

I continue to be astounded by the way RTD is treating the fans that are upset about the death of Ianto. The EW interview, the AfterElton interview, and today, the bits I've seen about the DW and TW panels, show me that he's just absolutely gleeful that we're all upset, doesn't give a toss, and hopes we go watch some other show (which he admits he does EXACTLY what he thinks we're all so fucked up for doing, which is writing his own subtext and ignoring what the actual writers are putting on the screen). Then he says he's just going to write a new TW, with Jack and a whole new set of characters, ones I assume he will have no compunction about killing. And I'm supposed to be entertained and invest in that?

I also think RTD has put firmly to bed the idea that Ianto died for any reason other than to get Jack in the emotional headspace to be able to sacrifice Steven. Oh, and because TW is dangerous and you die young, blah blah blah. But Ianto was fridged and he deserved better. We, as viewers, deserved better. I know they weren't going to get happily ever after (that's only for Gwen and Rhys, apparently, although if I were Kai Owen, I'd be looking for other work right fucking now, because TW is dark and everyone dies young blah blah blah).

I'm in mourning, and I'm angry, and why I can't just disconnect from this show makes me nuts. But I can't and the more I hear that RTD is chuckling and making fun of the "few people who know how to type" being angry about Ianto, the less I like him.

[exbentley]

Oh my god. My thoughts exactly. He's so eye-rolling about all the fans' knee-jerk over-reactions, and I think that's justified — god knows I would feel the same. I actually like the tone he takes a lot in that interview; sort of handwaving aside what really is imho a non-issue.

I don't always agree with RTD either, but I love that he's a bit of a bastard. On the other hand, I know dark honesty doesn't appeal to everyone, especially in Real People, but I do wish people wouldn't take "ugh he's so arrogant and sneering" to mean "he's a terrible person and hates all fans and ruined my show and wahhhh". Which I've seen a lot of around.

[fluterbev.livejournal.com]

Just dropping in to say I really like all the things you've said about CoE. It makes a refreshing change, after some of the stuff I've read lately!

[woogledesigns.livejournal.com]

Maybe the problem is Fandom itself.

Fan is short for fanatic. A fanatic is, by definition... well... unreasonable. So saying something reasonable (like 'you don't own the characters, a TV company does' or 'the series arc will not and can not be decided by your mass consent') to them is not likely to sit well.

And also is internet fandom really just a venue for mass hysteria? How many people log on simply so they can vent irrational thoughts- and do these people have any other kind of thoughts in the first place? Are the majority of internet commentators immature or uneducated- have there been any demographics on that published?