On the other hand, is the show's worldview amoral, immoral or just totally absent and the product of incoherent writing. It's like, with Torchwood one can usually tell what went wrong wit the script or the direction or the acting or whatever and what's supposed to be dark and horrible. With Merlin Patty and I just keep shouting at the TV, "what the hell was that?"
On the other hand, is the show's worldview amoral, immoral or just totally absent and the product of incoherent writing. It's like, with Torchwood one can usually tell what went wrong wit the script or the direction or the acting or whatever and what's supposed to be dark and horrible. With Merlin Patty and I just keep shouting at the TV, "what the hell was that?"
no subject
Date: 2009-10-22 05:26 pm (UTC)Ummm, yeah. Understatement, I believe.
Adam establishes a few things, #1 That Ianto has a really dark side, #2 That Ianto does not like this side of his and does his best to repress it and #3 That Jack manages to alleviate some of the stress of Ianto's repression - that may be extrapolation and fanfiction thinking, but I think the text supports it, in the way that Jack handles Ianto's faux confessions - #4 is of course that Ianto is ashamed of these feeling and needs to confess them, duh.
I'm trying to wrap my mind regarding what you mean by taboo, because ostensibly non-consent is taboo in our rape-filled culture. How would it be different?
no subject
Date: 2009-10-22 05:35 pm (UTC)While the Whoniverse is rather intentionally a-religious (all that wacky content with demons and Satan and stuff that's big fun if you're info gnosticism that keeps coming up aside), there are to my mind three arguments to make about Jack's cultural background:
1. Actually, it's just Jack and his attitudes about sex has nothing to do with his cultural background.
2. In the future, people are just way more chill about sex and it's just not a big deal, thus reducing shame about sex and one just wouldn't rape because "but why would you do that?"
3. Sex is, despite the above mentioned a-relgiousness of the Whoniverse, something akin to a holy (if casual) thing, making the violation of personal consent a crime against both individual and culture and something that doesn't have the bullshit grey area discussion attached to it that our culture has.
Because rape is abhorent to you, me and the people we hang out with, doesn't mean it has a cultural perception of the most shockingly sick thing imaginable that erodes the humanity of all us.
I really suspect it might be that sort of thing in Jack's culture, which is what I also use as my argument for Jack's willingness to be all chivalrous and old-fashioned on earth -- even if it is sexist, it's how to be a good guy in a culture where that's not a default state. It's also what I use as my argument for Jack's self-hatred, because Jack was a torturer and I don't imagine he was able to draw the line at the inevitably sexual component of that every time. Jack's done shit not just that other people would hate him for, but stuff he can't forgive himself for.
no subject
Date: 2009-10-22 05:43 pm (UTC)I keep forgetting this.
[nods] I can see how those three arguments come about, I like the thought of it being his cultural default, making it something to look forward to. Looking at the history of torture, the humiliation and pain put upon the victim seems to have been more often than not sexual because, well, the sensitive bits are there and, as you say, the violation is that much more acute. Jack's self-hatred is very well explained through that prism. When I talk to other fans about the potential lack of taboos in Jack's past/our future it inevitably also comes to incest - also given Jack's immortality, it would kind of be inevitable, PLUS the whole dynamic in the hub (pre COE) was pretty incestuous.
And hell yeah the gnostic side of things is fun!
no subject
Date: 2009-10-22 05:49 pm (UTC)My two big fandom interests have been Jack and Snape, and they were both arguably torturers at some point in canon described but not seen. The contortions people go through to argue that sexual assault was not a component of this torture strikes me as really dishonest. If we can't confront this shit in our fictions, we're never going to manage to confront it anywhere else either.
no subject
Date: 2009-10-22 05:59 pm (UTC)I hate JKR for emasculating Snape the way she did. You can argue that through Harry's perspective, Snape's memories came off as XYZ, because Snape himself came off as, well we all know what... but honestly! She just made his this pathetic, obsessive (which he is, no doubt) and took away any shred of dignity and nobility he clung to over the years in order to survive!
Arrrgh.
Also, that epilogue is an insult to readers' intelligence at the very least and just plain bad writing.
no subject
Date: 2009-10-22 06:02 pm (UTC)As to JKR and Snape.... oh yeah. I really wish we could ever know what the hell JKR was thinking at various stages of her writing process with Snape. Because viscous fluid of memory? When we finally learn that Snape had a thing for a real actual woman? Making him finally a man instead of the subject of female adjectives used to belittle? Really? Really really really? I'm still floored by it.
no subject
Date: 2009-10-22 06:05 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-10-22 06:08 pm (UTC)Infludes FPF and RPF (really, read the two RPF's on the first page, they are fantastically smart). Some people have later claimed their stuff and psoted it in their journals, but there's great shit in there you might never see otherwise (including the Ianto/Alice, the enema fic I rec'ed the other day (which the author later claimed) and a really subby!Jack/Ianto prostate milking fic).
Also, don't just rely on the index the mod puts up, as it tends to be behind. Digging through the actual request/response post is worth it.
no subject
Date: 2009-10-22 10:41 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-10-22 11:38 pm (UTC)The Ianto/Alice story was brill, thank you! I've been needing a story like that... or something.
Those RPF/FPF stories were so sad and clever. Thanks for getting me onto the meme. I was aware of it, but not really there.
no subject
Date: 2009-10-22 11:50 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-10-22 06:28 pm (UTC)