White Collar seems to be hitting something in people other than "pretty suits" and "lying liar who lies" and I suspect it's because we see Neal getting that hand-at-the-back mentoring from Peter that I think a decent number of the folks who identified with Ianto really wanted to see Ianto get from Jack (and we don't see it overtly, like we do in White Collar, we had to assume it, and for me, in that regard Ianto had very much arrived in terms of competence by the time of CoE, so I think maybe people didn't just lose the character, they lost the dynamic they both wanted and needed him for, hence the rage in some cases). So I think it's meeting that need for a benevolent but harsh taskmaster thing as gen or as kinky as the viewers want.
Peter makes Neal a finer thing. People _wanted_ Jack to make Ianto a finer thing, but whether he did (whether he tried, whether that was the dynamic there) is far more arguable.
That's what I'm seeing anyway, as someone who wasted a lot of their 20s wanting someone to make me a finer thing and then decided no one else was really worthy or capable of the job (I am not saying this desire is jejune, btw, I am saying this desire led me to be an idiot and didn't work for me; your storybook may vary).
And I didn't watch Torchwood through that lens (I saw Ianto as someone Jack (and others in the past) forced to learn to do such stuff for himself, fast, and I appreciated the relationship for that reason. I also didn't identify with Ianto, which is separate but tangental). Watching White Collar, however, gives me a nostalgia for the desires of my 20s. I recognize, very keenly the texture of the day-dreams it evokes for me.
no subject
Date: 2010-03-22 05:35 pm (UTC)And I agree, I do think a lot of the sadness about Ianto is the "we'll never know" factor (it _guts_ me). And I think I think a lot of the rage is "oh shit, but _my_ life's gonna get better, right? RIGHT?" Just, more subterranean and convoluted than that.
no subject
Date: 2010-03-22 05:41 pm (UTC)I'm...IDK, I'm not worried about my life getting better, my life isn't exactly stupendous and it's still way better than it has ever been, so I suppose low expectations are good for something :D But you know me, I'm compulsive and neurotic about The Story, and it is very much for me that I don't ever get to ask "what happened next?" again for that story. It's like waiting over the long hiatus for new canon and then realising, every couple of weeks, oh right, there won't be any. :/
Usually I've drifted away from a canon before it ends due to decreasing interest. I think Torchwood is the first canon since the Chronicles of Narnia that dumped me first.
no subject
Date: 2010-03-22 05:43 pm (UTC)Also, dude, you're not filled with rage. So hence you being really engaged about Ianto's death, but also not necessarily taking it personally in the same way as others do.
Many of my dark places are disturbingly like Neal's. And the one's that aren't, are like Jack's (at least lots of Jack's good qualities resonate with me too). And where those two characters overlap? Yeah, hi, right here! BADNESS.
no subject
Date: 2010-03-22 05:47 pm (UTC)II know that nobody killed Ianto to spite me, so yeah, I don't take it personally. Which is not to say that I'm not angry about some elements surrounding his death, but why start yelling when everyone else is yelling dumber shit and drowning me out. :)
There is no more canon for me, will not ever be. Doctor Who, yes, and I am hesitantly excited about that, but even if Torchwood airs again, and even if I thought there would be anything in it to interest me (for the record: highly unlikely) I don't trust it enough to watch it again.
So. No new Torchwood for me. Which is hard, but not as hard as watching it and getting dicked around again would be.
no subject
Date: 2010-03-22 05:51 pm (UTC)So I'm trying to decide, who do you identify with on White Collar? Mozzie or El? ;)
Also: are we going to be seeing White Collar fic from you or what?
(also also, did I really change my icon to this pic a week before I started watching WC? Because that's cracking my shit up).
no subject
Date: 2010-03-22 05:55 pm (UTC)As for the rest, you know me too well :D I don't really strongly identify with anyone on the show, but someone asked me who I would be and I said realistically, Mozz. El is, believe it or not, too together for me to be her.
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Date: 2010-03-22 05:58 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-03-22 08:01 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-03-22 05:56 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-03-22 05:57 pm (UTC)I just really want to natter with someone about White Collar fic, because I'm trying to figure out what I've decided is going on off-camera when, and I haven't made that determination yet, and I want to hear what other peopel are trying to puzzle it out.
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Date: 2010-03-22 05:59 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-03-22 06:00 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-03-22 07:58 pm (UTC)