Buffy update

[rm]

So we just watched "Into the Woods" and I have to say what the fuck just happened there?



Let me get this straight, Riley gets out of bed with Buffy, after they've just fucked, to go to a vampire whorehouse, as has been his habit lately. Then Spike, acting out of his lovelonging for Buffy, breaks into her house, wakes her up, and then brings her to see Riley cheating on her WITH VAMPIRE WHORES in action. And then when Buffy and Riley finally speak to each other about it the next day, it's all Buffy's fault?

Now, okay, I agree, that Buffy's head was never in that relationship, and she didn't really treat him fairly, but in a situation like that, reasonable people break up with the person or meet someone else as they drift apart. They do not start frequenting VAMPIRE PROSTITUTES and then blame their girlfriend for it!

Buffy, to her credit, dumps his sorry ass, which is not what I would have done at her age (in circumstances remarkably similar, oddly enough, just, without the vampires).

And then fucking Xander shows up to explain to Buffy that no, it really is all her fault, Riley is the man she should marry, and she should go beg his forgiveness immediately.

WHAT THE MOTHERFUCKING FUCK IS THAT?

Yes, relationships can (and often should) survive cheating/breaking of promises. But Riley was a class-A asshole to blame Buffy for his response to their mutually broken circumstances, and Xander showing up to be all "how dare you have self-respect, that's getting in the way of looooooove" was icing on the cake of chick-hating/victim-blaming absurdity (that is, if I don't even mention that absurd, "let's chase the helicopter down" scene).

What was that?

THIS SHOW IS FEMINIST? HOW IS THAT? Because Buffy gets to kick the shit out of her enemies before being 'splained to about how her strength makes men feel bad and ruins her relationships?

WHAT BULLSHIT IS THIS?

OH MY GOD.

And then the next episode Xander and Anya are on about Buffy's "terrible" relationship track record. You know, two long-term relationships at her age, in one of which she at least has detente with the ex, is not even remotely the worst track record in the world. But oh no, there must be something "wrong" with Buffy.

Jeez, kids, ever think that (a) she's the Slayer and (b) has some self-respect and (c) really has been thrown a lot of curve balls in both relationships that were completely outside of her control?

Because sure, she's made some bad choices, BUT WHO WENT TO THE VAMPIRE WHOREHOUSE? IT SURE WASN'T BUFFY.

HOW CAN THIS SHOW HATE WOMEN SO MUCH?

Also, don't get me started on the whole "here have a bucket of judgmental metaphors" thing with said vampire whorehouse. Find a through-line, people!

Holy crap. WHUT?

Comments

[redstapler.livejournal.com]

HOW CAN THIS SHOW HATE WOMEN SO MUCH?

Because Xander is a known misogynist mook, his comments make a narrative sort of sense. However, I'm actually surprised at Anya's comments because she's usually on the woman's side of any heterosexual couple's argument.

Additionally, Riley was totally set up as the "right" kind of guy for Buffy, so of course if the relationship failed, it would be her fault. That, however, *is* the writer's fault, and doesn't make sense with the narrative.

[rm.livejournal.com]

Until now, I've mostly though of Xander as a typical dumb dude who sometimes fails but is more or less okay. And now I sort of think he's a horrible person with a blind-spot the size of Nebraska.

[laufeyette.livejournal.com]

The scene with Xander makes me cringe every time. Just when I was starting to forgive him for "kick his ass" that speech happened and sealed my dislike of him in stone. A shame, really, since he's the focus of so many clever, hilarious episodes.

Honestly, I can hardly stand to watch this one. I love Buffy so much (the character, if not always the show's treatment of her) that I feel like someone is yelling at my best friend and I just want to jump to her defense and be like "wrong, wrong, wrong!"

The only saving grace of Into the Woods IMO is that Riley finally goes away. Yay.

[moominmuppet.livejournal.com]

The only saving grace of Into the Woods IMO is that Riley finally goes away. Yay.

So totally agreed.

Also, I entirely agree with rm's dislike of Glory. In general, this just isn't one of my favorite seasons.

[pantryslut.livejournal.com]

Ha. We just watched this episode on Logo, and I had the exact same reaction you did to the Xander intrusion. I was yelling at the screen, for sure.

[virginia-fell.livejournal.com]

Your commentary on the vampire whorehouse angle continuously cracks me up.

[ladyaelfwynn.livejournal.com]

One any given day it's a toss up as to who my least favorite character on Buffy is. It is usually either Xander or Angel.

This ep., plus the hyena ep. from season 2, the "kick his ass" comment, and other stuff that you'll be getting to just make me want to slap him. He is a mean, snarky boy and if he can't have Buffy, he wants the guy most like him to have Buffy. And since Xander's not undead, that means Capt. Cardboard.

Riley isn't a bad guy. He's just way out of his league both when it comes to Sunnydale and Buffy. He has no idea how to deal with a tiny, cute, little girl, who not only can kick his ass but kick the asses of things way bigger than he is and not work up a sweat.

He also doesn't get how emotionally fragile she is. And how hard it is for her to trust people, especially guys. Because the guys in her life, fuck up, and/or leave. Her dad, Angel, Giles, Parker, and now Riley.

BTW, you don't marry the first person you date in college. Hell, you may not marry any of the people you date in college. College is a learning experience and Riley was Buffy's daliance on the side of normal with extra helpings of misplaced macho.

Both Marti Noxon (who wrote and directed this ep.) and Jane Espensen who wrote "The Replacement" (double your Xander; double your fun?) and many other eps. have said in various interviews that they dealt with some of their issues whilst writing for Buffy. It wouldn't surprise me if this was way more about Marti than Buffy.

[exbentley]

Ughhh but Xander is a misogynistic twat, and S5 is so poorly co-ordinated that a lot of emotional storylines don't make sense from episode to episode.

But at the same time, I remember feeling the same way as a teen; that Xander and Riley were wrong and Buffy was right and I wonder if the mansplain narrative is a little self-aware and we're meant to feel bad for Buffy anyway? I'm trying to remember the context this episode has, if it's just setting up for Everything Sucks For Buffy plot, but I never watch S5 so I can't.

By the way, I'm really loving your ep commentaries, I love listening to new people watch Buffy and your comments are definitely providing new perspectives.

[frodo-esque.livejournal.com]

I reacted with anger too-- but not again Joss because so much of what Buffy is going through is shit I went through too. it's what makes this show relatable-- I GOT that everyone around her didn't GET her-- didn't get how wrong Riley was for her, and what an ASS he was. I too had dated asses that everyone pressured me to be with, but I rose above them and dumped them anyway.

That said, I was also left with remorse afterwards-- just as Buffy was. There were moments where their guilt got to me, and it made me want to run back to the jerks--and Buffy was in the exact same situation.

[missdeanna.livejournal.com]

Ugh, yeah, "Into the Woods."

Xander's speech always bothered me, too. I didn't really get how the whole thing was her problem, or how her swallowing her pride would actually fix anything. Xander had his moments, but he really pissed me off in the later seasons.

Riley was extremely insecure, both in general and in terms of wanting to prove his masculinity, and I don't think he realized how much of the problem really was him. And I don't think his and Buffy's relationship could have worked, regardless of whether she was able to forgive him.

But at the same time, that episode broke my heart a little. For one thing, I felt for Buffy. But also, I suspected that if she had caught him before he left, she would have realized fairly soon that her initial feelings had been correct, and would have cut him loose with minimal regret.

[reannon.livejournal.com]

He's not horrible. However, he is in love with Buffy... and I use the present tense because they never gave us a hint that he ever fell out of love with her after realizing he loved her in Season Fricking One. In fact, Nicholas Brendan gives us several hints with subtlety often lost on the Season Five Writers (otherwise known as the fabled Monkeys With Typewriters) that he carried a torch for Buffy all his life. As such, he is always a little overreactive and negative about Buffy's love life - witness his outright lie to Buffy right before she goes to fight with Angel, leaving out how Willow was still trying to restore his soul.

Here's the thing: I don't find that Buffy's failings or even Xander's make the show less pro-woman. Because these are all things that real women will have to face (albeit without the vampires). Even the most self-possessed woman with all the agency in the world will second-guess herself and consider taking back someone who hurt her. And she will have friends who tell her, "You know, if you'd just worked a little less, if you'd been more UNDERSTANDING, he wouldn't have [fill in the blank]."

I don't think the show is saying Buffy was wrong or that Xander was right. I think they were a) getting Riley the hell off the show because he was dragging the whole thing down, b) reinforcing that the Slayer Stands Alone, and c) giving us conflict that we will relate to. At least, I did.

What would've been ridiculous? If she'd caught him at the helicopter and actually kept him. Because in a week? Back to the same fight. That is the cycle of an unhealthy relationship. At least we were spared that much. IMHO. :)

[amand-r.livejournal.com]

Additionally, Riley was totally set up as the "right" kind of guy for Buffy, so of course if the relationship failed, it would be her fault. That, however, *is* the writer's fault, and doesn't make sense with the narrative.

I always saw it is "this is the right guy, but sometimes the right guy still isn't right." I rather didn't mind Riley, and I didn't have a problem with this plot line because people do dumbass shit like this all the time that's very easy to spot from the outside as opposed to the inside.

For me, it was less about the show hating women (I don't think it does at all. I think that means that we assume that the writers are the characters), and more about the characters (Oh Xander, you idiot) being stupid and running their mouths. Xander has moments after and bore this that show that he's not the most sensitive to female issues, like a great deal of the guys I've known. And that doesn't make them bad. That makes them unthinking.

Anya I always assumed at this point in time would side with Xander in a lot of ways because no matter how opinionated she is, I think she worries that he'll leave her sometimes (grimacing).

That's just my take on it. But that "right kind of guy" set up. I think it was intentionally set up, and then ripped apart on purpose. I like that.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

HOW CAN THIS SHOW HATE WOMEN SO MUCH?

Because Whedon writes it and he's got more issues than the Library of Congress magazine room, and the only reason people think he's feminist is because he repeatedly writes about women as self-determining weapons after they've been abused into it somehow by a man.

Not that I have a bunch of issues of my own about all of his writing after the middle of the Buffy run or anything.

[p-zeitgeist.livejournal.com]

It's a Marti Noxon episode. She had Issues about Buffy and what Buffy was supposed to want; I seem to recall her doing interviews about it at the time (or maybe just talking to the trade press). It's true that Whedon could have stopped her and didn't, but it's also true that ideally, a showrunner is supposed to respect his writing room's creative input. And Noxon's episodes are distinctive in tone and outlook, for good and ill alike.

[kel-reiley.livejournal.com]

That's just my take on it. But that "right kind of guy" set up. I think it was intentionally set up, and then ripped apart on purpose. I like that. - this

this is definitely not one of my favorite episodes, and i didn't much care for the whole vampire "whorehouse" plotline, but it's really one of those stories in which NONE of the characters' actions were "right" - it was all ppl being sort of stupid and not seeing it until afterward, which happens in life, and there are regrets

season 5, i think even more than 6, was the toughest on buffy

[amand-r.livejournal.com]

Yeah, they did a couple of things in this season that I think follow the trope (I hate that word. How about "pattern"? or "storytelling rhythm"?) of "this is the way it's set up to be--oh wait, that's right, no. Denied." Even the structure of the finale falls into that. This is supposed to end a certain way because that's what expected of these things. Oh wait. Not really. Denied. I like that, because if I hear one more person say something like "that's not how this is supposed to be" when something questionable happens to them, I might just be in danger of losing my retinas to the inside of my skull.

Denied!

[redstapler.livejournal.com]

Season 6 couldn't have happened without the things that occurred in Season 5.

I know that's a really dumb statement, but I say that as someone who identifies a lot with the way Buffy feels in S6 because I had stuff like what happened in S5 occur recently.

[kel-reiley.livejournal.com]

oh yeah, but i really like how it is all sort of foreshadowed throughout the season, too - i don't know about everyone else, but for the most part, i saw it coming

[kel-reiley.livejournal.com]

no, that makes perfect sense
i think that season 5 really pushes buffy to her limits, in many ways

[amand-r.livejournal.com]

I DELIBERATELY IGNORE EVERYTHING FORESHADOWY. IT'S A MUTANT TALENT. SO THEM IN THE END I CAN BE ALL, "OMG I DID NOT SEE THAT COMING."

Naw man, that thing you mean? The Thing? How could people not see that coming. That wasn't foreshadowing. That was fore-oi-paint-on-canvas.

[kel-reiley.livejournal.com]

not just That Thing, but lots of the other little things, too

[chaos-by-design.livejournal.com]

Your reaction is exactly the same reaction I had.

Also, about Buffy's heart not totally being in the relationship with Riley; well at least during season 5, a fair bit of her emotional energy was being spent dealing with her mother being terminally ill.

And yeah, I don't think her track record with relationships is that bad, considering her age and the fact that she's the Slayer.

[gwyd.livejournal.com]

I saw that one for the first time the other night. Thank you. I wondered if I waws the only one felt that way. Riley needed a kick in the pants, not coddling. Of course, I spotted right off how uncomfortable he was with being with a woman who could kick his ass and had been waiting for him to hurry up and get gone.

[chaos-by-design.livejournal.com]

Riley was extremely insecure, both in general and in terms of wanting to prove his masculinity, and I don't think he realized how much of the problem really was him.

Yes. This.

[bugeyedmonster.livejournal.com]

Your icon is made of win. Sometimes while watching some episode of a fave show I think "there's a plot hole that would snag a semi." (A semi is another slang word for those big 18 wheeler things.)

I don't mind plotholes while watching cheesy B movies.