Buffy update

[rm]

So we just watched "Into the Woods" and I have to say what the fuck just happened there?



Let me get this straight, Riley gets out of bed with Buffy, after they've just fucked, to go to a vampire whorehouse, as has been his habit lately. Then Spike, acting out of his lovelonging for Buffy, breaks into her house, wakes her up, and then brings her to see Riley cheating on her WITH VAMPIRE WHORES in action. And then when Buffy and Riley finally speak to each other about it the next day, it's all Buffy's fault?

Now, okay, I agree, that Buffy's head was never in that relationship, and she didn't really treat him fairly, but in a situation like that, reasonable people break up with the person or meet someone else as they drift apart. They do not start frequenting VAMPIRE PROSTITUTES and then blame their girlfriend for it!

Buffy, to her credit, dumps his sorry ass, which is not what I would have done at her age (in circumstances remarkably similar, oddly enough, just, without the vampires).

And then fucking Xander shows up to explain to Buffy that no, it really is all her fault, Riley is the man she should marry, and she should go beg his forgiveness immediately.

WHAT THE MOTHERFUCKING FUCK IS THAT?

Yes, relationships can (and often should) survive cheating/breaking of promises. But Riley was a class-A asshole to blame Buffy for his response to their mutually broken circumstances, and Xander showing up to be all "how dare you have self-respect, that's getting in the way of looooooove" was icing on the cake of chick-hating/victim-blaming absurdity (that is, if I don't even mention that absurd, "let's chase the helicopter down" scene).

What was that?

THIS SHOW IS FEMINIST? HOW IS THAT? Because Buffy gets to kick the shit out of her enemies before being 'splained to about how her strength makes men feel bad and ruins her relationships?

WHAT BULLSHIT IS THIS?

OH MY GOD.

And then the next episode Xander and Anya are on about Buffy's "terrible" relationship track record. You know, two long-term relationships at her age, in one of which she at least has detente with the ex, is not even remotely the worst track record in the world. But oh no, there must be something "wrong" with Buffy.

Jeez, kids, ever think that (a) she's the Slayer and (b) has some self-respect and (c) really has been thrown a lot of curve balls in both relationships that were completely outside of her control?

Because sure, she's made some bad choices, BUT WHO WENT TO THE VAMPIRE WHOREHOUSE? IT SURE WASN'T BUFFY.

HOW CAN THIS SHOW HATE WOMEN SO MUCH?

Also, don't get me started on the whole "here have a bucket of judgmental metaphors" thing with said vampire whorehouse. Find a through-line, people!

Holy crap. WHUT?

Comments

[redstapler.livejournal.com]

HOW CAN THIS SHOW HATE WOMEN SO MUCH?

Because Xander is a known misogynist mook, his comments make a narrative sort of sense. However, I'm actually surprised at Anya's comments because she's usually on the woman's side of any heterosexual couple's argument.

Additionally, Riley was totally set up as the "right" kind of guy for Buffy, so of course if the relationship failed, it would be her fault. That, however, *is* the writer's fault, and doesn't make sense with the narrative.

[rm.livejournal.com]

Until now, I've mostly though of Xander as a typical dumb dude who sometimes fails but is more or less okay. And now I sort of think he's a horrible person with a blind-spot the size of Nebraska.

[laufeyette.livejournal.com]

The scene with Xander makes me cringe every time. Just when I was starting to forgive him for "kick his ass" that speech happened and sealed my dislike of him in stone. A shame, really, since he's the focus of so many clever, hilarious episodes.

Honestly, I can hardly stand to watch this one. I love Buffy so much (the character, if not always the show's treatment of her) that I feel like someone is yelling at my best friend and I just want to jump to her defense and be like "wrong, wrong, wrong!"

The only saving grace of Into the Woods IMO is that Riley finally goes away. Yay.

[moominmuppet.livejournal.com]

The only saving grace of Into the Woods IMO is that Riley finally goes away. Yay.

So totally agreed.

Also, I entirely agree with rm's dislike of Glory. In general, this just isn't one of my favorite seasons.

[pantryslut.livejournal.com]

Ha. We just watched this episode on Logo, and I had the exact same reaction you did to the Xander intrusion. I was yelling at the screen, for sure.

[virginia-fell.livejournal.com]

Your commentary on the vampire whorehouse angle continuously cracks me up.

[ladyaelfwynn.livejournal.com]

One any given day it's a toss up as to who my least favorite character on Buffy is. It is usually either Xander or Angel.

This ep., plus the hyena ep. from season 2, the "kick his ass" comment, and other stuff that you'll be getting to just make me want to slap him. He is a mean, snarky boy and if he can't have Buffy, he wants the guy most like him to have Buffy. And since Xander's not undead, that means Capt. Cardboard.

Riley isn't a bad guy. He's just way out of his league both when it comes to Sunnydale and Buffy. He has no idea how to deal with a tiny, cute, little girl, who not only can kick his ass but kick the asses of things way bigger than he is and not work up a sweat.

He also doesn't get how emotionally fragile she is. And how hard it is for her to trust people, especially guys. Because the guys in her life, fuck up, and/or leave. Her dad, Angel, Giles, Parker, and now Riley.

BTW, you don't marry the first person you date in college. Hell, you may not marry any of the people you date in college. College is a learning experience and Riley was Buffy's daliance on the side of normal with extra helpings of misplaced macho.

Both Marti Noxon (who wrote and directed this ep.) and Jane Espensen who wrote "The Replacement" (double your Xander; double your fun?) and many other eps. have said in various interviews that they dealt with some of their issues whilst writing for Buffy. It wouldn't surprise me if this was way more about Marti than Buffy.

[exbentley]

Ughhh but Xander is a misogynistic twat, and S5 is so poorly co-ordinated that a lot of emotional storylines don't make sense from episode to episode.

But at the same time, I remember feeling the same way as a teen; that Xander and Riley were wrong and Buffy was right and I wonder if the mansplain narrative is a little self-aware and we're meant to feel bad for Buffy anyway? I'm trying to remember the context this episode has, if it's just setting up for Everything Sucks For Buffy plot, but I never watch S5 so I can't.

By the way, I'm really loving your ep commentaries, I love listening to new people watch Buffy and your comments are definitely providing new perspectives.

[frodo-esque.livejournal.com]

I reacted with anger too-- but not again Joss because so much of what Buffy is going through is shit I went through too. it's what makes this show relatable-- I GOT that everyone around her didn't GET her-- didn't get how wrong Riley was for her, and what an ASS he was. I too had dated asses that everyone pressured me to be with, but I rose above them and dumped them anyway.

That said, I was also left with remorse afterwards-- just as Buffy was. There were moments where their guilt got to me, and it made me want to run back to the jerks--and Buffy was in the exact same situation.

[missdeanna.livejournal.com]

Ugh, yeah, "Into the Woods."

Xander's speech always bothered me, too. I didn't really get how the whole thing was her problem, or how her swallowing her pride would actually fix anything. Xander had his moments, but he really pissed me off in the later seasons.

Riley was extremely insecure, both in general and in terms of wanting to prove his masculinity, and I don't think he realized how much of the problem really was him. And I don't think his and Buffy's relationship could have worked, regardless of whether she was able to forgive him.

But at the same time, that episode broke my heart a little. For one thing, I felt for Buffy. But also, I suspected that if she had caught him before he left, she would have realized fairly soon that her initial feelings had been correct, and would have cut him loose with minimal regret.

[chaos-by-design.livejournal.com]

Riley was extremely insecure, both in general and in terms of wanting to prove his masculinity, and I don't think he realized how much of the problem really was him.

Yes. This.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

HOW CAN THIS SHOW HATE WOMEN SO MUCH?

Because Whedon writes it and he's got more issues than the Library of Congress magazine room, and the only reason people think he's feminist is because he repeatedly writes about women as self-determining weapons after they've been abused into it somehow by a man.

Not that I have a bunch of issues of my own about all of his writing after the middle of the Buffy run or anything.

[p-zeitgeist.livejournal.com]

It's a Marti Noxon episode. She had Issues about Buffy and what Buffy was supposed to want; I seem to recall her doing interviews about it at the time (or maybe just talking to the trade press). It's true that Whedon could have stopped her and didn't, but it's also true that ideally, a showrunner is supposed to respect his writing room's creative input. And Noxon's episodes are distinctive in tone and outlook, for good and ill alike.

[reannon.livejournal.com]

Also, if my math is right, he was beginning the development of FIREFLY while writing some of the best of ANGEL that year, so he was probably not giving BUFFY his whole attenton.

[chaos-by-design.livejournal.com]

Your reaction is exactly the same reaction I had.

Also, about Buffy's heart not totally being in the relationship with Riley; well at least during season 5, a fair bit of her emotional energy was being spent dealing with her mother being terminally ill.

And yeah, I don't think her track record with relationships is that bad, considering her age and the fact that she's the Slayer.

[gwyd.livejournal.com]

I saw that one for the first time the other night. Thank you. I wondered if I waws the only one felt that way. Riley needed a kick in the pants, not coddling. Of course, I spotted right off how uncomfortable he was with being with a woman who could kick his ass and had been waiting for him to hurry up and get gone.

[thatwordgrrl.livejournal.com]

There was some behind the scenes shit going on with Seasons 5 and 6.

At that time, Whedon was gearing up for Firefly and in the middle of a nasty dispute between the WB and FOX over distribution rights (which eventually led to the show finishing it's run on UPN, also owned by FOX).

So Buffy was left to the not-so-tender mercies of Marti Noxon, who appears to have this amazing talent for getting her ass fired from show after show due to "creative differences."

One could argue that Whedon was still technically in charge and responsible, but he was spread pretty thin at that time, and it only gets worse for Seasons 6 and 7 of Buffy, as by that time he had three shows on three different networks.

There will come a Season 6 Spike/Buffy interaction that will have you howling for blood. Go blame Marti Noxon for that.

[matthewwdaly.livejournal.com]

Ooh, can I also blame Marti Nixon for turning Oz into a homophobic psychopath? Because I'd love a name to associate with that piece of epic dumbassery.

[realtsunamigirl.livejournal.com]

Okay, first, I can't agree that the show hates women. Or that Xander does or Joss.

I've always had a sneaking affection for Riley and a lot of pity for him. He is the "It" guy. He's your go-to guy, he'll do anything for you from grabbing something off of the top shelf to challenging his girlfriend to a sparring match and then thinking its sexy, if a little unnerving, that she can whoop his butt. Hell, I would date Riley in a minute.

The problem and the point is that Buffy isn't normal and as soon as Riley actually is (post surgery stuff) he can't offer her what she needs (backup, another powerful fighter) and she won't take what he does have to offer (emotional support, help with keeping her life running when her mom gets sick.) He gave up everything that he was in order to be with her and winds up in a relationship where a man who was raised to give everything he could, can give nothing. Has nothing and feels totally adrift.

So he goes out and does something profoundly stupid. Repeatedly. Then he does more stupid stuff, like giving Buffy an ultimatum. Really, really stupid stuff. The problem being is that Riley is simply just too normal and generally well-adjusted to be a Scooby and function. He has to go out and find out what it is to be maladjusted in order to fit in and understand at which point he realises that being a Scooby involves being miserable a goodly portion of the time.

Xander on the other hand, sees Riley as the kind of guy he wants to be, the kind of guy he wants around and the kind of guy he wants his friend to be with. Personally I thought that at that point Buffy needed a good, swift smack upside the head for a whole variety of reasons, some of which involved her treatment of Riley. I thought Xander pretty much summed things up in a lot of ways. He can be a major shmoe but I thought that telling her to stop and look past her hurt pride and justifiable anger and decide whether she might want to give it another shot, because waiting until she had cooled off was not an option, was a the mark of a good friend. "Pull your head out of your ass and don't let anger and hurt pride make your decisions, because you've got a miniscule time window and you don't want to blow it."

Don't get me wrong, I never thought Riley was her forever guy. I thought that the whole vamp whore thing was stupid beyond belief and giving her the ultimatum was the cherry on the cake, but I don't see it as being as ragingly sexist as everyone else seems to. I just see it as people being stupid and self-involved and hurting each other.

And Buffy's track record with guys, in terms of interest, dating or potential (off the top of my head) besides Angel and Riley:
-Owen (Emily Dickenson guy, who finds the Scooby life too much fun and she dumps for his own good)
-Tom (The frat boy who tries to feed her to the snake)
-Ford (The old friend, with romantic overtone potential, who tries to feed her to Spike)
-Scott Hope (The guy she dates for several episodes and then dumps her right before homecoming and, we later find out, tells everybody that she was gay)
-Parker (The guy who one-night-stands-her)

It's not so much that there are that many, it's just that they all end pretty spectacularly badly and painfully, which in combination with the Riley and Angel things? Yeah, I'd say terrible pretty much sums things up.

[saomigray.livejournal.com]

I am so happy you finally said something about all the hatred of women on this show. I've had to be very careful with letting my daughter watch and made sure to talk to her about how stalking and rape are not ok and how to build better relationships.

Since I've never heard anyone else say anything negative about the show and all my friends kinda look at me like I've lost my mind when I mention how much the show hates women, I've sometimes wondered if I wasn't making a big deal of nothing. It's good to know there really is a problem with the show and it's not all in my head.

[elisi]

Welcome to one of the most universally hated episodes in the show's canon. To this day it makes many a fan want to throw things at the screen. There's a lot of good comments already, but the best way of looking at it (IMHO), is if you see Riley as a metaphor for male privilege. ETA: Excellent meta here, which does not have any spoilers! (Although avoid the comments.) Problematic episode, full stop.

And since I'm here, another thing I thought of re. privilege - Riley has the luxury of being able to walk away (and uses this against her). Buffy is the one with the people depending on her (not to mention the fate of the world), and I think that is a depressing, and yet worryingly accurate, depiction of many relationships...

[redstapler.livejournal.com]

I just went over and read that post, and may I say, RIGHT ON? It's great because it both highlights why the episode is awful and hard to watch, and why it's actually important and works in the narrative.

Edit: D'oh, you weren't the original author.

[stakebait.livejournal.com]

I know, I hate this episode with a firey passion, and tend to treat it as Buffy's fucked up dream ballet of guilt -- and/or Xander's secret crush on Riley.

Overall I found the show to be reasonably feminist/woman positive -- this episode being one, but alas not the only, glaring exception.

Not that this excuses it, but I've been told Joss went into something of a snit at fandom's lack of acceptance of Riley. The idea was that Riley is a normal, non-fucked up guy and our inability to let go of Angel is messed up. Although I had no trouble letting go of Angel, and my beef with Riley is not that you have to be fucked up to be interesting, but that you have to be interesting to be interesting, and "normal" is not a substitute for a personality. In any case, one can read Into the Woods, particularly Xander's bizarro diatribe, as a Jossian rant at fandom. Which is the sort of thing I wish showrunners would save for their blogs (Aaron Sorkin, we're looking at you) but may somewhat explain the sudden onset of preachy.

What bugged me also about the vampire whorehouse is that really, that's a pretty responsible way to handle being a vampire -- maybe not as hairshirt perfect as drinking only animal blood, but considering it involves consent and leaves the people alive, certainly better than the usual drink and drop, or even raiding the blood bank (unless you only take the contaminated or expired stuff). And really no consideration was given to the question of whether vampires who are practicing safe bite deserve to be staked. Not that I expected Buffy personally to consider it right away in the midst of her betrayal rage plus Slayer programming, but since the show opened this can of worms I would have liked to see it addressed somehow and not just instantly dismissed.

[redstapler.livejournal.com]

I love this comment and I want to buy it flowers.

[tommx.livejournal.com]

I never quite got Xander's defense of Riley and put it down either to poor writing choices or something along those lines. Maybe it's just me, but I generally don't encourage my close female friends to pursue relationships with passive aggressive addicts. Call me crazy.

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

What the hell is this??! What the...

Buffy, ye have super strength. Riley's neck goes crack. Problem solved! Get some respect, slap Xander upside the head and get with the neck cracking. Crackle crackle.

[bodlon.livejournal.com]

Because sure, she's made some bad choices, BUT WHO WENT TO THE VAMPIRE WHOREHOUSE? IT SURE WASN'T BUFFY.

Stakes for everybody!

[paulshandy.livejournal.com]

Wow, this was a mind-boggling thread. The thing is, I mostly watched "Buffy" with a friend of mine (one friend), and read some academic articles about the show. I had no idea there was so much negative fan response to some of these episodes. I knew people argued about the show, but wow. In the last twenty minutes I read more negative criticism of "Buffy" than the rest of my life combined. What's even more amazing is how upset fans could get and not stop watching.

[alterjess.livejournal.com]

I'd actually blocked out almost all of ItW until reading this thread. (I mean the line "You...and your whores" is pretty much burned into my brain forever, but it's amazing how I've managed to erase Riley from almost all of my memories of S5.)

Reading this, though, I'm remembering how absolutely apeshit fandom went over this ep at the time. (In retrospect, it was just prepping us for Seeing Red, but we didn't know that then.)

I can't agree with the Blame Marti First crowd, unfortunately. Yes, Marti has her issues, and when she writes Buffy's love life, bad things happen. I am totally willing to believe that the vampire hookers were her idea. But let's also not forget that Xander is Joss' stand-in. Failing to appreciate Riley and then letting him get away was something Buffy and the audience had in common, and Joss/Xander wasted no time in telling us how he felt about that.

[rusty_halo.livejournal.com]

Oh my god, thank you so much for writing this. I agree so much. "Into the Woods" was one of the lowest moments of BtVS for me--it was so mind-bogglingly sexist. I think we used to call the ending "the helicopter run of low self-esteem."

Riley was always threatened by Buffy's strength. And HE cheated on HER. And then BLAMED her. She was so much better off without him.

And then Xander--if the lie in "Becoming 2" hadn't ruined him for me, this certainly would've. Narrative tone is a big part of the problem. Both Riley and Xander's behavior is realistic from unenlightened young men raised in a sexist society, but the way the story is constructed, it's them that get validated, while even Buffy accepts that it's "her fault" that her insecure dickhead boyfriend CHEATED ON HER WITH VAMPIRE WHORES OMG.

Just wait until you get to "As You Were" in season six. *shudders*

PS: Sorry, after all these years it seems that the gender wtfery in BtVS still brings out the capslock of rage in me.

[natf.livejournal.com]

I'll be honest - I hated the whole Riley plotline and skipped most of S5. Roll on S6!