linkies

[rm]

So yesterday I felt awful because I felt ill from all the physical work of the last few days. But after a three hour nap yesterday and six hours of sleep I feel human again. Now the muscle pain kicks in. If I can just keep up physical activity as this winds down (there's still the unpacking), I'm going to be buff this summer. Of course, I always talk about this, carry on about it for a while and then get over it. A lot of it comes from how I like to work out. I hate to jog. Gyms annoys me. Yoga just doesn't speak to me (despite my beating my head against it, even at NIDA), etc etc. I just like to randomly move around to music. Not in an aerobics way. I guess I should just do that in my house... since I don't really go clubbing anymore, and this is better than that anyway. Sigh, anyway.

today we have linkies.

Not that interested in the wedding, and don't generally think the princelings are terribly hot, but this photo is ferocious. http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2005/04/09/international/boys.jpg

Meanwhile, so much for the new homosociality
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/10/fashion/10date.html?8hpib
Dinner with a friend has not always been so fraught. Before women were considered men's equals, some gender historians say, men routinely confided in and sought advice from one another in ways they did not do with women, even their wives. Then, these scholars say, two things changed during the last century: an increased public awareness of homosexuality created a stigma around male intimacy, and at the same time women began encroaching on traditionally male spheres, causing men to become more defensive about notions of masculinity

In the wake of Lord of the Rings, can someone please tell me why guys still can't deal with, well, just socializing without terror and overt declarations of manhood? And sure I know some who do. But really. Le sigh. Tip for straight guys who may be reading this who may feel uncomfortable socializing with their male friends one on one without the aid of sports or business -- this is why I, and a lot of other women I know, hate you. And it's why we don't understand you. And it's why we don't trust you. Because it tells us you don't know how to be friends with anyone, and at a certain age, we don't want to date anyone we can't be friends with. The socialization patterns of women are not a gaggle of us giggling in the bathroom, despite what you've heard. Sometimes it happens, especially amongst younger women, but the bulk of our social interactions less resemble that, or even Sex in the City, so much as doing things we really enjoy with another female friend who really enjoys them. And no, it's not because women are somehow more prone to being bi (there's a seperate divergence here about girls kissing for the sole purpose of impressing boys at bars, but that's a problem waaaay too screwy for this hour of the morning), it's because we're less afraid of losing. Which in the end is why we're powerful. And ultimately, is why so many of you hate us. So I guess we're even. But it's _fucked_.

All men, however, agree that one rule of guy-meets-guy time is inviolable: if a woman enters the picture, a man can drop his buddies, last minute, no questions asked.

Also, dudes. To a woman, this lacks honour. Completely. We catch you doing this for us or someone else, and it says you're disrespectful and willing to blow off established connections for transient pleasures. We won't be impressed, and we won't trust you. We _may_ screw you, but in that case, it's eaither because all we want is a one night stand and we don't care if you're a cad, or it's because we're still immature in how we conduct our friendships and relationships.

Comments

[marzipan-pig.livejournal.com]

I've had a huge issue over that 'date over friendship' thing in my life, like, if you don't value friendship how can I ever respect you as a friend and/or a date?

[roadnotes.livejournal.com]

Agreed. That's always been something of a deciding line in my relationships.

[tsarina.livejournal.com]

Nice photo.
Now what on earth is that "head decoration" on the daughter? It looks like the hats made by Winona Ryder in that horrible Richard Gere movie set in NYC. I do however, approve of Camilla's hat. It's wacky without being scary Southern Church Lady with Pearls.

My terrible secret is that I get some of my exercise using a DDR pad at home. I rationalize by reminding myself that there are no clubs in Austin that play any music I want to dance to.

[roadnotes.livejournal.com]

The whole lack of man dates seems weird to me. Every reasonable guy I've been involved, as far as I can recall, has had at least one male friend with whom they could say, "Let's hang/see a movie and have dinner and talk/go to the museum." I consider it a part of being a real adult in many ways -- you have relationships, both sexual/romantic/friendly and non-sexual/friendly, and you're not too shy/homophobic/weird to admit to them.

[rm.livejournal.com]

I really wish I could see the totality of the mailbag the New York Times gets on this one.

[delchi.livejournal.com]

All men, however, agree that one rule of guy-meets-guy time is inviolable: if a woman enters the picture, a man can drop his buddies, last minute, no questions asked.

Also, dudes. To a woman, this lacks honour. Completely. We catch you doing this for us or someone else, and it says you're disrespectful and willing to blow off established connections for transient pleasures. We won't be impressed, and we won't trust you. We _may_ screw you, but in that case, it's eaither because all we want is a one night stand and we don't care if you're a cad, or it's because we're still immature in how we conduct our friendships and relationships.

While I can agree with this, I think it's variable depending on the situation. Out here in the badlands, there are women who expect that exact behavior. The theory is that if they are unable to pull guy away from guy friends and " manly things " that they are lacking in some quality and somehow less.

From a personal point of view, I've never had male friends who were bound to the sports/business thing. Granted there were other things to take their place ( tech talk for example ) but I never saw it as bad as I have in others arenas.

A good example is the shuttle bus from my house to the office. On the ride back every night ( it's about 45-60 minutes ) there are three guys who sit in the back of the bus and loudly discuss, in this order , sports, their wives, and female television stars. It starts out with how about (team), then the inevitable 'your team sucks' jokes, then 'I have to go do something with the wife this weekend' , and after a pause 'how about that samantha from bewitched? I'd do her' ( actual quote ). It repeats every day at 6 pm without fail.

tell me why guys still can't deal with, well, just socializing without terror and overt declarations of manhood?

I still believe that we ( as males ) are preprogrammed socially to do that from the earliest of age, and unless otherwise diverted from that path will continue until we are comparing mag wheels on our wheelchairs. It's an evolution - who has the bigget dumptruck in the sandbox, who has the best bike, and who has the best stock portfolio and so on.

I think that changing this will require either breaking social norms at an early age, or re-education circa 18-19 by someone with common sense to share.

[rm.livejournal.com]

I still believe that we ( as males ) are preprogrammed socially to do that from the earliest of age

And I as a woman am programmed from the earliest age to hate myself. I choose not to. You all can get over it. It's not that hard.

[delchi.livejournal.com]

I completey agree. I like to think that in some ways I have managed to get past most of these things. Sometimes I still catch myself saying/doing stupid things and say " Hey, where did THAT come from? ".

Still, I see people every day that have not, choose not to, or probably never will.

[hightekvagabond.livejournal.com]

All men, however, agree that one rule of guy-meets-guy time is inviolable: if a woman enters the picture, a man can drop his buddies, last minute, no questions asked.

Also, dudes. To a woman, this lacks honour.

While I mostly agree, this one point is something I don't agree on, it's not a lack of honour if it's a given set of rules that all in the situation were aware of ahead of time and agreed on. It's a lack of honour if you break a rule you had agreed on, but, if a bunch of guys goes to a bar, and one meets a woman he likes his buddies may be Jealous that he got the cute chick, they may razz him, but they almost never feel ditched, mostly they are happy for thier friend.

So, it's not that guys lack honour when they do something like this it's just a different version of honour.... now if a guy ditched his buddies for a girl one night and the next time threw a fit because someone else did it, that would be a lack of honour. Or, if a guy is out with a female friend (just friends) and ditches her (who doesn't have the unspoken understanding) for a girl he meets, then that is a lack of honour. But when it's a situation of "I won't do to you anything I wouldn't expect you to do to me and we both understand and agree" then where is the problem?

Thats like saying one night stands are a problem... if both people are adults and choose to live by those rules there is no loss of honour.

[hodsthorn.livejournal.com]

For the most part, I agree with what you're saying here, and have a number of male friends I don't feel the need to prove my heterosexuality around (at first I kind of wondered who would need to do this, but then I remembered the guys I worked security with in NYC a few years back). But is it just a little harsh to lump "sports" as a pastime spent with those friends in the same category as "business"? Why is going to a sports event, or watching one, or playing catch, different than people "doing things we really enjoy with another female friend who really enjoys them"?

[rm.livejournal.com]

I was working from the premise of the article, which discusses not playing sports, but watching them specifically as a way to prove heterosexuality and to avoid having to look the male companion in the eye and discuss issues.

[hodsthorn.livejournal.com]

It's an interesting point--my own experience is that sport-watching leads to extremely in-depth conversations in which friends (I should add the caveat that the most in-depth football conversations I have are with a female friend, though certainly the majority of my sport-loving friends are male) bond--or argue--over issues of priorities, personal opinion, shared knowledge, and hopes for the future.

That said, I'd certainly be inclined to think that there might be a problem if someone only talked about sports with their friends--but really, any sort of monotonous obsession with a single subject, to me, lies on the path to madness. Or at least unforgivable dullness.

[splodgenoodles.livejournal.com]

Well.

I hit random and here I am.

All men, however, agree that one rule of guy-meets-guy time is inviolable: if a woman enters the picture, a man can drop his buddies, last minute, no questions asked.

Also, dudes. To a woman, this lacks honour.

Hell yeah! I think I need to mention this to someone...I wonder if this different perception were understood, would we get along better...?

Nice post.
:-)

[rm.livejournal.com]

I think it would help certainly. Anyway, welcome.