oh fandom, NO!

[rm]

http://community.livejournal.com/jackxianto/3668643.html
in which someone says something that sounds an awful lot like "die-hard SF/F fans are an oppressed minority."

http://community.livejournal.com/jackxianto/3668643.html?view=12636067#t12636067
In which I yell.

thanks for the heads-up from starstealingirl

Subcutlures, because they are by definitions not the mainstream dominant culture, are technically minorities.

But here's the deal, I'm a minority because I'm queer, because I'm Jewish, because I am not as white as look.

Engaging with enterainment in a non-culturally dominant way may be responsible for affecting the tone of huge swathes of my life, but it doesn't define it. Being a member of an actual minority does.

I am not a minority because I like SF/F or because I cried and cried and cried for Ianto or even because I have an unpopular fannish opinion in the sense that I'm not all worked up about RTD and whether he respects fandom or not -- I don't care, I don't need his approval.

Believe me, I get what you are saying. For older fen in particular, there is this very real sense of being in this small, sort of looked down upon subculture and since many of us interact with the world differently than the mainstream (there are studies on the high incidence of the non-neurotypical in the fannish community), I do sort of get why you chose this angle to frame your point.

But with things like Harry Potter, Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, Comic Con, Dragon*Con, and, yes, the Children of Earth miniseries, fannishness is now a pretty nearly mainstream activity.

But more than that: no one ever threw beer bottles at me for being fannish. No one ever threatened to rape me for being fannish. No one fucking threatened to beat my face in with a brick for being fannish. They have (the first two) because I was gay and (the third) because I'm Jewish.

Considering one of the biggest plot points and now fandom controversies relates to the show's handling of Ianto's sexuality, you really might want to check yourself here.

I am a minority and it's not because I loved a man who never was, even though I did.

Comments

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

I totally get your point, but I think she's saying that the invested fandom subculture is being dimissed/ignored, not oppressed. Subculture might have been a better and less loaded term than minority, though it seems to me that she likely means it in the statistical sense.

I'm with you on RTD. I don't care if he gives a damn about my opinions or not.

[godofstrife.livejournal.com]

At CC RTD himself said that the internet fandom and the fans that want Ianto back are just a minority. I'm convinced they are just using the same term RTD used without thinking about other implications, which doesn't make it less annoying.

[ophymirage.livejournal.com]

I'm with you on RTD. I don't care if he gives a damn about my opinions or not.

Without commenting on whether I'm personally insulted by what RTD said, I think it is worth nothing the following:

I agree that SF/F has gone *more* mainstream in the past few years. But as a genre, especially a TV genre, it is still going to be more dependent on a solid fan base for ratings attention, funding, etc. than something like 30 Rock or E/R or 24. Building a solid, even "rabid" fan base, does help get your show out to the larger more general public, especially during a show's delicate beginnings, because the rabid ones proselytize and hook their friends in, who hook their friends in, etc. etc. (As people keep bringing up Mr. Whedon, I'll adduce "Serenity" as the prime example of something that might not even have been made without fandom's agitation and support.)

That said, it strikes me as perhaps not the brightest idea, PR-wise or marketing-wise, to stand up in front of approximately 4000 of said rabid fanbase, many of whom are tweeting/liveblogging/etc. whatever gospel is about to spill from your hallowed lips - and tell them their opinions are unimportant and dismissable. Seriously? these are not just couch-potato BBC viewers, they are the ones spending significant bucks for hotel, con, flights, signatures, action figures, DVDs, novel tie-ins, or whatever other merch you're putting out.

I'm not arguing that fans SHOULD have a say. (I'm on the fence about the issue. As a fan, I'd like to think my opinion counts; as a writer, I want to be free to write the way I think the story should go.) But I DO think it's extraordinarily bad business to stand up and tell them, essentially, to fuck off.

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

I'm not arguing that fans SHOULD have a say. (I'm on the fence about the issue. As a fan, I'd like to think my opinion counts; as a writer, I want to be free to write the way I think the story should go.)

I know exactly what you mean. For example, if someone doesn't like a plot twist I've done in fic - and I "just" write fanfic, not original fiction - my opinion is: "Okay. I'm sorry this didn't entertain you. Go write your version, then, and we're all happy." Someone may think a story is complete fail, just as I may believe a televised series is a failure. I can let the creators know, but they're not obligated to change the story or bring a character back because I say so.

And not everybody thinks that's a great idea anyway. I think subgroups of subgroups sometimes assume that they speak for fandom. Liiiiike... there's a group of people who want a 3rd X-Files film. The second one was made of such fail that I think they ought to leave the franchise alone. Those fans don't speak for me.

But I DO think it's extraordinarily bad business to stand up and tell them, essentially, to fuck off.

It is. I mean, all fans already know it's obviously RTD's gig and he can do what he likes. His comments were tactless.

[rm.livejournal.com]

Here's the thing though, it's not his job to be tactful either.

Sure, it would be ever so lovely, but it's really, really not his job. And I have a hard time blaming him for wanting to create that boundary.

I feel like I've had a lot of (mostly email-based) interactions over the last week where people have been asking me to make it better for them, or hold the tissue, etc., and I have no idea why, and I try to be lovely about it, because it seems decent. But it's also hard, and overwhelming, even as it's also flattering. And I'm just some idiot who rants on the Internet (and occasionally professionally).

Boundaries are hard. And it's hard for me to fault someone who must a) be in a really weird position and b) has a life I largely can't imagine, for wanting his, regardless of how the tone of his enforcement of same comes off.

[ophymirage.livejournal.com]

Here's the thing though, it's not his job to be tactful either.

Sure, it would be ever so lovely, but it's really, really not his job.

I'm going to disagree with you, purely on the business side of things - writer to writer, whatever, sure, he can be as opinionated and boundary-driven as he wants. But RTD is more than a writer, he's the guy who basically brought New Who and Torchwood into existence. In that respect, he's more like the head of a production company, who does have some responsibility for being the public face of the company. (especially if he puts himself in that role in public.)

speaking as a businessperson, it's generally a very poor idea to get in front of your target demographic and tell them you're uninterested in their opinions. Makes said demographic tend to opinionate with their wallets.

Bill Gates is about the only CEO I know who can get away with that level of user abuse, and Torchwood is not nearly as ubiquitous as Windows.. :D

[ophymirage.livejournal.com]

I feel like I've had a lot of (mostly email-based) interactions over the last week where people have been asking me to make it better for them, or hold the tissue, etc., and I have no idea why, and I try to be lovely about it, because it seems decent. But it's also hard, and overwhelming, even as it's also flattering. And I'm just some idiot who rants on the Internet (and occasionally professionally).


I confess that a) reading your extended entries on first the spoilers, then dealing with the grief, helped me process a great deal of my own up front, so that when I finally watched Day 4 last night, I was able to cope without outright tears. also, b) that I had wanted to comment yesterday on your LJ to ask "what did you think about RTD's comments" since you tend to be my "what's happening in Wank today" connection, but you're already handling it. :D

[rm.livejournal.com]

And normally, I never sort of cover the wank because I really don't want to be a part of it, but this one... it's been hard to stay out of it, because of places I feel I have to speak out, and because you know, it's just swallowing up this huge circle of friends I have. I'm pretty sure I've not always been at my best in it, but I'm trying, really trying.

What's super crazy, is I've spent so many cycles on all of this, and still haven't gotten around to saying any of the things I really want to.

One more thing -- I watched a video from SDCC of JB talking about filming the death scene, and you can see RTD to the side, visibly swallow in what I thought was a moved/pained sort of way, when JB talked about how really fucking hard it was. Regardless of what comes out of RTD's mouth, I think we have no idea what's going on in his head, and he certainly wouldn't be the first person to be a bit of an asshole in the name of defense mechanism both in regard to feelings about the work created and its reception.

*respectfully disagrees* (pt 1 of 2)

[loveslashangst.livejournal.com]

*respectfully disagrees*

I can't speak to what you saw on the video, but I can say what I felt, being one of the people sitting in the audience. From the moment he came out, RTD was grinning and almost gleeful at the thought that people might be upset at any of his decisions. And the more we objected, the happier he looked. The more we asked him to clarify and show even the slightest understanding that he'd slashed-and-burned TW to the point where none of us could see any future for the show, the more defiant, defensive, and dismissive he became. And JB and JG, both being good and decent people who really LOVE the show, defended him because... well... they have to.

Usually, my sympathy is with the writer/creator, because fans can be a seriously demented lot. (There is no way I would EVER defend the death threats. It's a SHOW, people.) But whereas someone like Joss Whedon knows which characters to kill and when (and how) and is very specific in his choices, RTD indulges in shock-value writing that does not serve the plot, nor does it allow characters to have naturalistic responses. It's the daytime drama model. Worse, he seems to equate himself with a Joss Whedon when in reality he's more the heir to George Lucas, except that he didn't actually create the series for which he's now known.

So in addition to the very real sense of insult that I felt, being in the room, let me identify a non-Ianto, non-personal CoE example of why the man earned first my dislike, and now an emotion that really does verge on hatred:

1) The 456 want 10% of the world's children because they're inter-galactic meth-heads.

2) The government has a chilling meeting in which they decide to save "the better half" and only cull the 10% out of the worst schools in Britain. It's eugenics at its worse.

3) The government launches a smokescreen campaign, in which they convince parents that there is a necessary "inoculation" and they should bring their children to school out of a sense of patriotism and in defiance of the 456. It's a very Bush-ian "can't let the terrorists win" argument, and as such is resonant and visceral with its audience, Americans in particular.

(CONT'D)

*respectfully disagrees* (pt 2 of 2)

[loveslashangst.livejournal.com]

4) RTD steps in, having been served this DREAM assignment on a silver platter. Ianto is gone. The children will be next unless a miracle occurs. (Which we know it will because Jack is a Big Damn Hero.) All we need now is some climax to resolve the issues, bring forward our new TW candidates, and let us cry a few well-earned tears for those who fell.

5) Buses show up at the schools. With armed soldiers. And armed military vehicles. And a Bad Attitude. This is the stupidest tactic I can think of, because it completely gives lie to the "this is a simple inoculation" propaganda. It alerts mothers and children and fathers that Something Very Wrong is about to occur. Instead of continuing the chill factor started in the cabinet meeting -- letting smiling, patriotic mothers wave their children goodbye, thinking they'd done their civic duty for Queen and country -- RTD moves the soldiers in. Takes the children, kicking and screaming. Fights the mothers.

Why do I disagree? It's too soon. This much emotion this quickly? It's the soap-opera pastiche of emotion. It forces mothers to have a sense of dread where they should have very little. It compels soldiers to act under duress in ways that I just don't find believable. Everything is crying and tantrums and a knowledge of Wrongness where there should be none.

My advice? Let the mothers let their children go, even if some have misgivings. Have "doctors" and "nurses", who the audience know are actually trained military personnel, to smile and guide the kids aboard while choking back their own concerns.

RTD often makes the mistake of giving himself no place to go. He's already blown the wad, so to speak, in the above instance and thus when I'm asked to show more emotion later as Gwen and everyone are running literally for their lives, it feels like the retread of a previous scene, instead of the heart-wrenching climax it NEEDS to be. There's no pacing. None of the finesse I saw in the first three days. None of the fulfillment of the promise of the premise that the other writers and Euros Lynn delivered. (Not to mention that the cast has never been better.)

In short, I feel that the writing shows the same superficial understanding of the real emotions and motivations of people that RTD himself displayed in person. Is he under attack? Hell yeah. Is he reacting defensively as a result? I'm sure he is a bit. Does he deserve the scrutiny and condemnation? Perhaps not to the insane degree that some are going, but the mess he made was one of his own choosing, and in dismissing the shock and grief of fans as a "fangirl" and "internet" response of only a few is to denigrate his fans. Regardless of ratings, I have yet to hear anyone defend days four and five. (The trailers for days 4 and 5 were actively booed.)

If I were RTD, knowing that fans are arguing at all about whether his were appropriate responses would make me look at myself. Question what I'd done and said. Then I'd go public. Make peace with those I could. Agree to disagree with those I couldn't. But in the end, I would do what both DT and JB did, which is to come back to gratitude and respect. "Thank you for being so passionate in your love for what I do."

Agree or disagree, if I'd at least felt valued as a fan, I would've forgiven RTD everything else. The sad thing? I WANTED to. I was hoping he'd have his day in public, and we'd see it was all a stupid bit of fandom wank, and I could go home feeling good about having supported him, even if I STILL think he made stupid choices.

Unfortunately, that's not what happened.

[ophymirage.livejournal.com]

One of the things that I think is most interesting (and revealing about fandom) is that, even in this thread, people seem to have come away with VERY different impressions of not what RTD said, but HOW he said it - "tone", as stardragonca said. I'm guessing that lots of the reaction was personal interpretation, based on how they already felt about the plot arc.

Me personally, haven't seen the video, was not at ComicCon (LSA was, and has her own definite opinions, withholding judgment till I have time to sit down and watch some of it myself.) As a writer, I am totally unsurprised by the idea that he was reacting 'defensively' to fans' responses. I also completely get why he might be excited/gleeful that he'd had lots of emotional reaction in the fanbase. We always want to know that our work's made an impact. :D

I watched a video from SDCC of JB talking about filming the death scene, and you can see RTD to the side, visibly swallow in what I thought was a moved/pained sort of way, when JB talked about how really fucking hard it was.

As a fan, this makes me happy. I'd like to know that he *did* feel some measure of sadness for a beloved character, and for jack's reaction to Ianto's death. It sounds like the current perception in fandom, based on his recent interviews at SDCC and in other venues, is that he doesn't even feel sad about it at the writer level. I'd like to think that's not true. :)

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

Creators aren't obligated to service fans at the expense of their art or to create storylines by consensus. I think it's more than fine for RTD to point that out.

On the other hand, I don't think it's RTD's job to be tactful, but it's good business not to bite the hand that feeds you by calling fannish opinion irrelevant, as ophymirage says.

Even if it actually is. :D

ETA: I think people like James Moran, and possibly RTD, were honestly surprised at some of the reactions to Ianto's fate. I think in some cases, they thought fans of Jack/Ianto would like the interaction in the earlier parts of the series and the overall story.

[stardragonca.livejournal.com]

Golly, there's that word 'tone' again.

PR-wise or marketing-wise

[stardragonca.livejournal.com]

Roddenberry Publicly told fans at Cons that they didn't get a vote.
It doesn't seem to have hurt him any.
And it had the virtue of being true.

Re: PR-wise or marketing-wise

[ophymirage.livejournal.com]

Right, but when that happened, he had the advantage of being king of a much smaller marketplace. I mean, where else were those fans going to go for entertainment? they had to put up whether they liked it or not. Nowadays, if I'm pissed off by Davies, I can indulge in Whedon, or BSG, or Farscape, or any one of three dozen other franchises/fandoms. that's why I'm arguing that it was a bad move on his part. I *do* have the option to vote with my wallet, and spend my money on a different fandom, which means lower revenue, lower ratings, etc. as fans make their choices.

Let me be clear: I actually don't give a shit about Russell's comments, he can say whatever he wants to people in whatever venue. I just think, thinking of TW as a business, that his comments may not have helped to promote his product with its users. :D

Re: PR-wise or marketing-wise

[stardragonca.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure that about 90% of the people who regularly watch the show have no idea who Russell T Davies is, and wouldn't remember five minutes after you told them.

Re: PR-wise or marketing-wise

[fide-et-spe.livejournal.com]

Yes but Spock was meant to stay dead! It was a classic example of fans getting what they want. I'm long enough in the tooth to remember. The fans even graffitied the studios with "Spock is coming back, whether they like it or not" Leonard Nimoy wasn't even keen. Anyhow here he is, still playing the role while even Shatner moved on, so that one worked out well...

I have just read some of the articles from this comic con and it does seem that the fans found RTD very rude and he really is just getting more unpopular, it does seem extraordinarily stupid of him. Also it sounds like people found Joss Whedon very sweet, and he thanked the fans a lot. I never really watched Buffy, but was reading the articles and it turns out he went out of his way to make the death of Tara "right" after the fans were devastated, even trying to get the actress to come back, but she refused. (By the way, as I said, know nothing about Joss W or his work, just read this in the After Elton article)

It may not be RTD's job, but you know what, most of us were brought up with better manners, and that's what I think he needs, simple politeness and grace, it really wouldn't kill him.

I also think he should just acknowledge these mostly young people who have their heart in the right place, raising £4000 for Children in Need is really admirable, and I don't see what harm there is in it.

Re: PR-wise or marketing-wise

[stardragonca.livejournal.com]

It is not bad mannered to tell people things that they do not want to hear. It is merely not agreeable.

Re: PR-wise or marketing-wise

[fide-et-spe.livejournal.com]

Oh I think you misunderstood, as I said, I don't care at all what he thinks about it. That wasn't my point. It is just the way he goes about it. He could be gracious and polite, there is no need to be arrogant and facetious towards fans.

Re: PR-wise or marketing-wise

[stardragonca.livejournal.com]

Gracious and polite is what people expect of servants and subordinates. People who aren't either pretty much do as they damn way please.

Re: PR-wise or marketing-wise

[fide-et-spe.livejournal.com]

Well I'm not either, and I try hard to be both. As do most of my colleagues, and those that don't are regarded as rude and ill mannered.

Re: PR-wise or marketing-wise

[ophymirage.livejournal.com]

well, that certainly clarifies why you and I were not seeing eye-to-eye earlier... I think I'll retreat to my copy of Miss Manners and thank you for an engaging and interesting discussion. :D

Re: PR-wise or marketing-wise

[ophymirage.livejournal.com]

The average viewing public? sure. but how many of those are the ones who buy the DVDs, the novel tie-ins, the audio play downloads, the action figures? who pay BIG money to go to cons, to buy facetime with JB and GDL and DT and etc.?

Ratings numbers are one thing. Money spent on your product is another.

To simplify with a CEO analogy:

Mac fans are rabid about Apple products, and tend to be both intelligent and highly opinionated (and proselytize about their product like ANYTHING.) They also tend to be fairly well off, and love congregating at cons like MacWorld. At MacWorld, the biggest event is Steve Jobs' keynote address to premiere new product.

Steve Jobs goes to MacWorld, stands up to give his address, and opens with "You guys are all morons and I have no interest in what you have to say about my product. Moreover, you have no right to tell me about how I should make that product work."

Now, that may be 100% true. However, I don't think it's an attitude likely to keep Apple in business, or keep its most ardent advocates happy, and Jobs' Board of Directors might encourage him to not speak next year.

Re: PR-wise or marketing-wise

[stardragonca.livejournal.com]

but how many of those are the ones who buy the DVDs, the novel tie-ins, the audio play downloads, the action figures?
Almost all of them, I should think.

who pay BIG money to go to cons, to buy facetime with JB and GDL and DT and etc.?
This 2nd group is insignificant compared to the first group.
And even if they weren't, there's no reason why they shouldn't be told that they don't get a vote. Because they don't.