sundries

[rm]

Sexism, let me count the ways: a new book in the UK asserts that women who allow nannies to help raise their children produce boys who grow up to be adulterers. And the girl children? Well they just become sluts and substance abusers.

The high school that canceled the prom because of a lesbian in a tux also reportedly repeatedly suspended a transgender student for earlier this year. In the realm of the slightly bizarre, this has come to light through Dan Savage, who has a good record about a lot of things and is entertaining as fuck, but has also been repeatedly faily regarding transphobia.

Wreckage of WWII plane found in Oregon.

That man who would become Pope Benedict XVI was kept more closely apprised regarding a sexual abuse case in Germany than previous church statements have indicated. Anyone got any insight into precedence/likelihood of the pope resigning?

I know we're supposed to hate A.I. (which I still think came perilously close to being one the greatest films ever made in spite of all the ways it falls apart; when I think about what it could have been had its vision fully succeeded I can barely breathe), but I can't introduce this link in any other way: Man Hatten, the place where the lions weep.

Dear Amanda Palmer: The problem with hipster racism is that if people don't know you it doesn't sound like a joke (which was never very funny anyway); it sounds like racism. Also, despite the illusions that celebrity media and internet culture encourage, most of the people who are really pissed off at you right now, don't know you; hence your racist joke sounding, you know, racist. Also, please stop contributing to our societal abuse of the word irony.

That said...

Dear Everyone Else, I am extremely sick of people calling her "a bitch" and "a slut" and other gendered terms that are about shaming female gender and sexuality because they either are (rightfully) angry about this latest debacle and default to those words (I'm working on it too!) or, and this is what I'm really irritated about, because they don't like that she's marrying Neil Gaiman.

This thing is about Amanda Palmer and who she is in public. While this thing may or may not be relevant to who she or Gaiman are are in private, if you don't know them personally (_personally_, not whatever quirk of internet/celebrity culture put the whole Internet on a first name basis with them) who they are at home isn't relevant to you, and the jealousy and misogyny I've seen directed at her deeply, deeply muddies the water in the critical response to her work and the performance of her public life. Please knock it off. It's not helping, and it's not appropriate.

At long last, a URL and registration information for the Bristol conference at which I'll be presenting the paper about mourning for fictional characters: Desiring the Text, Touching the Past: Towards An Erotics of Reception.

Observation about White Collar fandom: Look kids, the rape narratives are back. No, really. Rape hasn't been a huge topic in Torchwood fandom at all. White Collar fandom? Rape, rape, rape, prison rape, prison rape, prison rape. Some of it's kinkmemes, some of it's people processing their own experiences, some of it's just there, but I'd forgotten this aspect of fandom. This sort of thing was prominent in Harry Potter fandom, but it had slipped my mind the degree to which its thematic absence from Torchwood (although I've seen a few stories here and there) is atypical of both fandom and media in general.

Comments

[delchi.livejournal.com]

The whole bit about hipster racism really caught my attention. First off, I strongly dislike hipsters, in the same way that I dislike other parts of our culture that just make me angry with their idiocy. The thing is I'm caught in between places on this one. I agree that racism is overstated , I also get the idea of laughing at racism and the racists, but not via spreading racist jokes.

The other thing that struck me is the bit about"having gay friends makes it ok to make homophobic comments" ... I've been caught in this not in that I made a homophobic comment but I've been in the company of homosexual couples who crack homosexual/homophobic jokes. WTF do you do in that case? Especially when they are the ones who come down on people for making similar jokes. There is no correct way to react. You wither ask them to cool it, and destroy the air , or you let it go and feel like hell inside. The last time this happened to me I was so completely uncomfortable that I tossed one seemingly harmless one back at them and they become very objective right back at me - something I did not predict as happening. I was able to get past it, but a cloud hung over the air after.

Also , the more I look into the humor and race subject it's interesting to find that what some people call racist is really more about stereotype
and not about race. Assuming that all jokes leave one particular person/race/religion/subject looking in a "humorous" light, there should be a delineation between making a race look bad for the sake of race ( racism/nationalism ) and for stereotypical actions of members of that race.

For example to "poke fun" at the Irish for their race is one thing, to "poke fun " at them because of a stereotype ( drinking, eating potato, not working ) is another. Many stereotypes are applicable to many races, so it's not ( IMHO ) correct to consider them inherently racist.

Consider any standard drunk joke. You could have a drunk Irishman, a drunk African-American, or a drunk "Redneck" and the effect of the joke would be the same, regardless of race.

An example of a explicitly nationalist joke : " Two British soldiers walk into a restaurant in Belfast. The first one orders...**BOOM** "

1. The negative light is shone on British soldiers, occupying Belfast.
2. The "humor" is that they are blown up and killed while ordering food, unexpectedly.

An example of a explicitly racist joke : " What's 12 inches long and white? NOTHING. "

1. The negative light is being shown on "White" ( a race )
2. The "humor" is that the implied appendage is quite small within that race.

Thoughts?

( edited to remove unnecessary snark )

[smirnoffmule.livejournal.com]

There is a lot going on in that first joke that I get the impression from your word choice that you're not aware of, so I'd suggest caution in assuming it offers an easy and contrastable example of anything apart from how sensitive political jokes are when they're about politics that people are killed over. Suffice to say what constitutes nationalism in Northern Ireland is an extremely loaded and complicated issue, and if there was one simplistic definition, there would have been a lot less bloodshed.

[delchi.livejournal.com]

I agree, everything is complicated in that situation - even to this day. I wasn't trying to get deep into that - but to show disliking people due to their nationality vs their race.

As far as things I'm not aware of , I'm aware of many of the facets of the conflict, but the "joke" is told from one point of view, (and not expressly mine ) and should be seen in that context.

I heard it told in a bar over this past St. Patrick's day - it was not my personal word choice(s).


I observe, listen and try to deconstruct things like this - with my personal opinions & point of view out of the picture and more focusing on the point of view of the person telling it.

Also note that I am using "Joke" and "humor" in quotes as I am painfully aware that these things are not funny to some people. People are sensitive to things, but I am looking at this from the point of view of an analyst and not intending to step on or inflame sensitivities. I believe that it is possible to discuss, debate , and educate on sensitive topics without people prohibiting it due to it's sensitive nature.


The point I was to show the brunt of the "joke" being based on dislike of a person due to their nationality and not their race. If you have a better example , please offer it up.

(Edited to clarify and to fix typos)

[smirnoffmule.livejournal.com]

I understood that you didn't mean the joke to reflect a personal view point, but the very fact you're attempting to present it as an apparently uncomplicated example of nationalism is a context in itself (as is your use of the word "occupying" which is deeply controversial terminology, and can only imply either ignorance of the loaded nature of what you're talking about, or your own political alliance - either of which would add further problematic context to your decision to repeat this joke).

Overwhelmingly, the joke is a political one, not one about nationality, since issue of the Northern Irish, Irish, and British national identity is a deeply divisive and political issue within Northern Ireland. FWIW I think that joke is potentially equally offensive to either side of the political divide, since it makes light of the murder of one group and stereotypes another as the terrorists. You can't analyse a joke without looking at what it's about, so if you felt you could avoid going deep into that you picked a very bad example - unless what you were really trying to demonstrate is that context and intersectionality plays a huge role in how jokes are recieved, in which case you were bang on.

[delchi.livejournal.com]

If I misrepresented it as uncomplicated, I'm willing to mea culpa to that - given that I am an outsider with only an outsiders point of view and observation.

the whole point was one of nationalism vs racism and how they can be confused.

Of course it's equally offensive, but as each person will interpret it as per their own values. I was not arguing that it is not offensive - it is and it can be specifically offensive depending on how you look at it and from what point of view.

Yes my point was that context is a key role in the interpretation of a "joke" that possibly perpetuates a singular point of view by origin, but by interpertaion has multiple possibilities.

My point is not to offend anyone, but to unravel the layers and ways that a person could be offended by it despite the intent of the initial.

I want to analyze it from possible points of view - to inculde the ones I did not take into consideration which is why I put it out for public consumption in the first place. I am not in any way saying that my point of view is THE one and the specific and only - I asked for opinion both to share an open space for consideration and for my own education - to which you have sincerely contributed to.

[smirnoffmule.livejournal.com]

If I misrepresented it as uncomplicated, I'm willing to mea culpa to that

I appreciate that. This is a conflict which is frequently mischaracterised in ways which can be very damaging (Americans giving money to the IRA, for example, without apparently understanding exactly what they're funding), hence my objection to your terminology. I'm sure you appreciate these are issues which are deeply sensitive and personal for many people (my uncle was a British soldier in NI, as it happens). It's easy enough to tell a joke like that in a bar in Denver; tell it in Belfast at the wrong time, the wrong place, it could be worth someone's life.

Honestly, I doubt you're going to have luck finding any kind of ethnic joke which is less loaded in terms of its political history and intersectionality - the reason these jokes endure is because they sting, and that sting has to come from somewhere.

[penguineggs.livejournal.com]

Both my sister and I went out, in our time, with soldiers who served in Northern Ireland, and both of them told us jokes which were both funnier and sicker than the example given. The difference? When it could have been (and was) you on the end of that bomb, you get a level of in-group entitlement to make jokes about it that people who weren't there and who didn't have their necks on the line simply don't. That seems to be a point which delchi seems simply to miss; there are people who can make jokes because they are making them from within the target group which are absolutely unacceptable from people outside the group.

[moljn.livejournal.com]

I'll leave it to others to go deep with this if they want, but I feel compelled to add a few things.

1) Irish is a race now?

2) In general, stereotypes about a "race" are racist. Your three drunk examples are all racist/prejudiced stereotypes. Of course it's possible to invoke a stereotype in ways that turn it on its head or otherwise make it clear that you're not serious, but that brings us to

3) Context matters. The sender matters. Both your jokes read very differently depending on who's telling them. I actually don't think it's the soldiers that look bad in the first one, but rather the people who blew them up. For the record, I'm neither Irish or British, or black, but as an outsider I'd feel a lot less comfortable with a Brit telling that joke than an Irish person (who, absent the right delivery and my knowing them well, would probably still weird me out), because people get to poke fun at their own stereotypes in a way that others don't, as you found out with your gay friends.

And since I don't know where you live, the source of the joke might even have been an American with Irish roots, which I'm pretty sure is a whole other kettle of fish.

4) As for the penis joke, well. For one, less than 12" is not "quite small" and the focus is instead on the foot-long, not-white penis. As, once again, an outsider, the stereotype I see is not the puny-membered white man, but the oversexed black man, and if the speaker is white then, as above, I think that could become problematic very quickly.

4b) On a non-serious note, that's a really bad joke. You know what's 12" long and white? My calf. My ruler says so.

It also says this post is quite long enough.

[smirnoffmule.livejournal.com]

Re 3 I think the joke could be taken in a number of contexts depending on who's saying it. It could be a bad taste comment on the legitimate dangers British troops have faced in Belfast, it could be glorifying in the killing of British troops, or it could be stereotyping the citizens as Belfast as all being republican terrorists. It certainly represents a very stereotyped view of the conflict itself (which was, FWIW, not a British-Irish conflict directly, but focused between loyalist and republican factions within Northern Ireland itself, hence why the issues of what constitutes nationalism here are so sensitive - plenty of people within NI identify themselves as British and wish to remain so. If it were just a case of making the English fuck off, it would have been much easier to sort out).

[delchi.livejournal.com]

I agree with this, except for the idea that it reflects on the citizens of Belfast. the comment on Belfast, IMHO as just the location of the incident and not reflective of the people contained therein. Yes I agree that it sows a stereotype of the ideas behind the conflict. I was not presenting it as a perfect storm, but as something I overheard.

As I , a non participant with limited information , it seems the conflict between two nations - and not tow races. To some people I am wrong, to some I am right. You may be right that I chose a bad example based on my own ignorance / limited education on the situation. I see it as nationalism and not race.

[smirnoffmule.livejournal.com]

As I , a non participant with limited information , it seems the conflict between two nations

No, it's a conflict within one very divided nation, as I said above; focused on factions within Northern Ireland itself. Hence why the issues of national identity here are so complex.

I'm not sure how the setting being Belfast could possibly be unreflective, since the joke would cease to make sense if you substituted say Paris or New York or even Dublin.

[delchi.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure how the setting being Belfast could possibly be unreflective, since the joke would cease to make sense if you substituted say Paris or New York or even Dublin.

Two American soldiers walk into a restaurant in Baghdad .....

( Not that I have heard this variation , but it could work )

[delchi.livejournal.com]

1. No I mean that as an example of nationalism, not race. The problem becomes that some people see that as a race, and not a nationality.

2. I see racism and stereotyping as different things. YMMV.

3. Agreed. Completely. My only objection is that you call these things "my" jokes. they are not mine, they are things I observe and hear in public. they should not be construed as being created nor having agreeing opinions from me.

3a : I currently live in Denver, CO.

4. The whole "joke" is open to interpretation. YMMV.

4b : I never implied or expected anyone to think it was a "good" vs " bad" joke. Again , it was collected form places I have been. I appreciate your candor.

[moljn.livejournal.com]

1) You called them a race in your fourth paragraph. If that was supposed to be a quote, fair enough. And frankly, those people are either ignorant or stupid, but whether it's based on ideas of nurture or nature, it's still prejudice.

2) It's all prejudice in my book, albeit in the shape of a Venn-diagram of some kind. We'll just disagree.

3) No worries, I meant it as shorthand for "the jokes in your comment".

3a) In that case, I really wonder if the jokester was Irish or "Irish", not that you necessarily know.

4b) I didn't mean it as anything against you, only the joke. Its badness just really stood out to me.

[penguineggs.livejournal.com]

"White Irish" is an official racial category on the UK census form, and Irish people can (and should) avail themselves of the protections of the UK Race Discrimination Act in cases of workplace or other discrimination.

[moljn.livejournal.com]

OK, I didn't know that. Thanks. I admit I find it a little weird, but I guess race is a matter of perception more than anything.

[cheshire-bitten.livejournal.com]

I was saying to a friend last night, I love AFP but she is really in need of an editor, someone to hit her over the back of the head occasionally and go, no that is a stupid/fucked/offensive idea

The pope resigning .....

[delchi.livejournal.com]

The problem is, if the pope resigns, he will just be replaced with another one. Granted this may prove for progressive thinking and maybe someone will inspire change ( you could say an Obamapope ) but I don't think that this will really change the root of the problem.

[coneyislandbaby]

I think a lot of the White Collar rape trope is that not only was Neal in prison, he was in a maximum security prison and well, it's cultural knowledge of how that works when you're as pretty as Neal is. And at least it makes cultural sense in this fandom - I was in Star Trek: Voyager and there was so much prison rape there it wasn't even funny and yet, even as a newbie, I was like... but the Federation seems to have moved on from that kind of prison... and yet, it was so prevalent. I actually don't think I've seen as much rape in other fandoms I've read in (though there's definitely more of it in, say, X-Files and I'm thinking there's a LOT of coded rape in Heroes - then again, given the show, that's not a surprise) as I've seen in the two fandoms I've read in (White Collar and Voyager) that do have canonical prison sentences for very pretty men so I do think there's a connection in there somewhere.

[sparkindarkness.livejournal.com]

I loathe it when people use gendered insults like that - especially in a case like thios. Seriously, she has done enough foolish and awful things that you can criticise her for DAYS and still have new material - why the hells does anyone have to resort to misogyny to criticise the prejudiced, privileged fool?

[chaos-by-design.livejournal.com]

Wow, the more I hear about Amanda Palmer, the more I'm glad I was never a Dresden Dolls fan.

I don't agree with using misogynist insults against her though; there's enough insults you can call her based on the stuff she's actually doing without getting into the gender/sexual based stuff.

[gwyd.livejournal.com]

I'm still pissed at Dan Davage. An apology would be nice. He's still faily on asexuals who get pissed on enough by our culture. Still, credit where it's due, in the last year he's been trying to improve his trans record and even had on a trans man to discuss trans man sexuality a while back. It's progress.

Rock Stars and Racism

[penguineggs.livejournal.com]

Someone should be telling Amanda Palmer that if people have been deriding a particular pose since 1976 at least it certainly isn't hip. I particularly treasure the comment about Eric Clapton's racist remarks back then: "Neanderthal and unhelpful" (which could profitably be applied to Ms Palmer's outburst, come to think of it). The best bit about the put-down in question was that it came from Enoch Powell. When Enoch Powell suggests your stance on race lacks nuance, that's quite a lack of nuance.

[virginhuntress.livejournal.com]

Hope this helps, don't know how credible the source:

http://atheism.about.com/od/popesandthepapacy/a/resignations_2.htm