the questions of our times: formality and vampires

[rm]

This, thanks to a discussion started by weirdquark. Please do visit the comments where you will learn many things including the many ways formality is structured in different languages (something my questions did not fully take into account, and I apologize for that), werewolf pack dynamics considerations, and whether there are vampires in France.

[Poll #1601631]

Comments

[rm.livejournal.com]

I've never run across that in French or Spanish, but I'm not fluent in either, although I can survive in both. I'm interested in that existence in Russian. I feel like that would be considered rude in other languages and cultures (much like, in queer circles, it's appropriate for me to ask "what pronouns do you prefer I use for you?"; but that same question would get shocked outrage in non-queer circles).

[spiderine.livejournal.com]

French and Spanish both have verbs to mean "use the informal with someone." (In Spanish, the verb is tutear: to address someone as "tu" instead of "usted". In French, the verb is tutoyer.) When you're speaking to an old-fashioned person, use the formal until such time as they invite you otherwise.

People you're of an age with, use "tu" immediately, and these days, I find that in the Latino neighborhoods I live in, everyone uses "tu" with everyone else. But then, we're neighbors!

[rm.livejournal.com]

I didn't know those verbs. I find I'm more informal in Spanish than in French, but then I learned my French starting in 1977 with a teacher from Paris at Miss Hewitt's. My Spanish, originally, was Castilian, but I've tried hard to excise a lot of those ticks and formalities from my speech because it's not appreciated in New York, AT ALL.

[spiderine.livejournal.com]

Me too! I learned very formal Spanish at school, but I've lived in NYC most of my life, so I've learned to speak what I call "subway Spanish". Local Latino idiom. :)

[kittydesade.livejournal.com]

Hm, I don't remember those verbs either! But I also haven't spoken Spanish habitually or regularly since I lived at home, and it was kind of a bastardized Mexican/Castilian dialect anyway due to how I grew up. Most of my Spanish is used either with family, as informal, or as a representative of a business.

I don't remember there being a set phrase or combination of phrases commonly used in France to request switching formalities either, but again, most of my experience was with other school-kids, so among equals, or with teachers. Is it your experience that these verbs are commonly used?

*is a bit of a dork*

[hoyland54.livejournal.com]

German has duzen and siezen for the informal and formal, respectively. I'm pretty sure there's some sort of etiquette for who offers the 'du', but I don't know it. (Well, it's almost certainly never me who gets to decide to use the informal, which makes things easy.)

[rarelylynne.livejournal.com]

This. In French, you "tutoyer" your peer group off the bat and children, but non-peers (older than you or alternate life forms) would give you permission to do so before you stop using the formal "vous".

So, for instance, I used "vous" with my Parisian host mom (who was in her late 40s) when I first met her; she insisted that we use "tu" right away since I'd be living with her. My Aix-en-Provence host mom, however, was my grandmother's age, and we used "vous" the entire time despite my living in her house.

I didn't meet any vampires in France, sadly.

[kittydesade.livejournal.com]

I'm fluent in Spanish and, well, rusty-fluent in French. I was surprised when I ran into that in the Russian textbook I'm studying, but my tutor assures me it's a common usage. Oddly, I don't remember running into it in Japanese, although that might be because from what I remember Japanese culture assumes you know where in the strata you fall in relation to everyone else, so you shouldn't have to ask. (Or it exists and I just don't know about it, which is also possible.)

(And my tutor is from Bulgaria... and she says Bulgaria has the same phrase as the Russian for requesting to be less formal. Just as a point of interest.)

[trinker.livejournal.com]

The rough explanation I give to Americans for how the Japanese handle that sort of thing is, "read Regency novels".

[kittydesade.livejournal.com]

... Oh god I hate Regency novels, but this makes me laugh. Regency-romances, you mean?

[trinker.livejournal.com]

Basically anything set in the era, or written in that era with any attention to social interactions.

The Japanese appear to have lucked out in just how they ended up encountering the West, and when.

As a side note: my mother, after nearly 40 years of friendship, still calls her best friend "Lastname-san". I have no idea what her first name is. I think if they'd met while they were kids, they'd call each other "Personal-name-chan".

Oh. Huh. Just realized that I can answer rm's question now.

How I would address any supernatural creature in Japanese would be encoded in their name/form of address. "Vampire-sama" is obviously spoken to in one of the registers associated with -sama, on down the line, all the way to -mono.

[kittydesade.livejournal.com]

I might actually have to break down and read some Regency novels then. I majored in anthropology and history solely because the way people interact absolutely fascinates me. Related to my fascination with language, how it shapes us, how we shape it, blah blah scientific stuff goes here.

... Huh! That is... something for me to note. (Sorry if I sound like I'm using you as a lab rat or anything, my usual response to nearly anything is "HUH! That's interesting *scribble scribble*")

... Aand that's something to note, too. Possibly in my Japanese notes for today...

[trinker.livejournal.com]

Okay, now we *really* need to go off in a dark corner and talk, while consuming bizarre beverages and foodstuff. Unless you're not into that?

Totally okay with being lab-ratted. It's like paying back for all the times I've engaged in the other direction. (I figure that's a big part of what other people are for...I like engaging in active culture "tourism", with aware and engaged participants.)

I hadn't considered the in-built formality cues until just moments ago, so this has been a fantastic conversation. (Thanks, rm!)

[kittydesade.livejournal.com]

I am insanely into that. I could geek about this kind of thing for hours. Hours, I tell you!

It must be my birthday. (Yes! That's exactly it. I just have this appetite for, feed me information! Patterns! I crave patterns of behavior garnished with the occasional random quirk!)

*waves* Thanks, rm!