the questions of our times: formality and vampires

[rm]

This, thanks to a discussion started by weirdquark. Please do visit the comments where you will learn many things including the many ways formality is structured in different languages (something my questions did not fully take into account, and I apologize for that), werewolf pack dynamics considerations, and whether there are vampires in France.

[Poll #1601631]

Comments

[l33tminion]

In Japanese, there are two dimensions to politeness in grammar (okay, that's an oversimplification, but I'm keeping things brief).

One is the basic split between formal and informal language. If someone is outside of your social circle, or not particularly close, or a superior, you want to go with formal language. So desu/masu verb forms, no dropping particles, cut out the slang, etc. Speaking properly is a must. (Assuming the vampire in question is not a close friend or family member.)

There's also additional ways to be extra polite with grammar and vocabulary, using lofty (describing their actions) and humble (describing your actions) verbs, for one. How much extra formality/politeness you want to layer on depends on the situation, but given that your traditional vampire is old, dangerous, and high-class, you probably want to go high on the formality.

[trinker.livejournal.com]

How respectable is your vamp, and does he perhaps fall into "old but disrespectable" ?

How would one, in the past, have addressed an oldster of the buraku class, I wonder?

Werewolves are literally "chikusho", aren't they?

[l33tminion]

Formal either way (though not necessarily polite). At least, if you're status-conscious, you don't want to treat them as a member of your group, however rude you're being.

[trinker.livejournal.com]

I think we're running into terminology vagueness. I don't know what you're defining as formal/informal vs. rude/polite

[l33tminion]

Basically, being too casual (alternately too informal, too "close") is one way to be rude, but not the only way, and not the way you'd choose if you wanted to paint someone as "beneath" you.

[trinker.livejournal.com]

Er...I think what you're trying to say is that there are *intimate* forms, which one wouldn't use, but that one would use an "I'm superior to you to the point that you're untouchable" form?

[l33tminion]

Yes, but the verb form in question is just the plain (dictionary) form.

As far as I can tell, you wouldn't use a different verb form to convey "you are below me" versus "you are above me", just different vocabulary. Unless you're issuing a direct command, then there's a lot of grammar affecting politeness.

[trinker.livejournal.com]

Unless I'm entirely missing what you're saying, I think you're off the mark.

"Omae wa dare dai?" is not intimate. It's off the map of "anata wa dare desu ka" "anata wa dare deshou ka" "anata wa dare"

And then one can go off into "kore wa nani ka?" (speaking to self, refering to creature as non-human)

[weirdquark]

Being inappropriately formal could be considered rude. Or -- in Utena, before Saionji loses the duel, Anthy calls him Saionji-sama. After he loses the duel, she calls him Saionji-senpai. Saionji-senpai is a totally polite and appropriate way for her to refer to him given they're both in high school and he's older than she is (although since he's in the student government, it would be more polite to use his title); it also came across as massively insulting.

I remember people thinking that it was kind of weird and creepy that in Card Captor Sakura, Sakura's father used -san with his ten-year-old daughter. That's probably mostly a western thing though -- not sure how common that would be in Japan.

[trinker.livejournal.com]

*argh*

Native Speaker getting schooled by anime-fan.

Not happy.

[l33tminion]

Okay, vocabulary _and_ grammar. Different bit of grammar, though, as you note. There's a reason I said I was oversimplifying in my first post.