red state letters - 1

[rm]

When I was just starting university, I served on the March of Dimes National Youth Council with approximately a dozen and a half other young community service leaders age 17 to 25. One of the girls was from Tennessee, and in the course of some conversation or other during a meeting, she mentioned that she went to church three or four times a week.

I spluttered and asked her why and then noted that I'd never been to church really other than for particular events like weddings, or on trips to see historic ones, or occassionally on a whim.

She looked at me, deeply puzzled at said. "Well, to socialize. I mean, what all do you do in New York?" She honestly didn't know.

"Well, we spend time with our friends."

"Where?" she asked, and I found I could not tell her in a way that made sense. In our homes, in cafes, bars sometimes, I guess.

"But, how do you get to know people, how do you meet anyone?"

"New York," I said, "is very crowded."

I was thinking about her today, because I've been thinking about the red states, and the people that voted there on the so-called moral issues, and as all of us here who fancy we have morals (or ethics) do, I've been trying to get a handle on what is really a profound cultural difference, that truly, I can't approach, I can't get on an organic level, and it's not because I wasn't raised well.

My father, as most of you know, is a very religious if somewhat eccentric man who has explored a lot of religions in his life. And while he doesn't go to church every, or really even any Sunday, the fact is he spends most of his time on his religious writing, and is deeply interested in listening to God.

My father and I don't agree on everything when it comes to morals, ethics or politics, and I dislike the intimacy of discussing religion with him -- I've my beliefs, and he has his, and it's well enough. But there are some things I know about God and the way lots of people view God because he's my dad and because we read a lot of psalms at the dinner table on Thanksgiving. All of which leaves me with some things to say to people voting on moral/religious issues in the so-called "red states".

Your God is a great and powerful God. He has put things awesome in their scale and perfect in their detail into being and has set into motion a world more complex than you or I can understand. This isn't me trying to talk to you in language you'll understand, and this isn't me being condescending, this is just what I've been told, what I've been given to understand about God. He's certainly impressive.

And he woos people to his cause, to his belief, constantly. If he did not religion would not be the force it is in this country, and Christianity in its myriad forms would not have swept the world as it has.

Your God is ubiquitous, convincing, compelling and appealing and he wins over new followers every day.

Which means your God is a lot more powerful than politics. A lot more convincing. A lot more healing.

Which leads me to wonder why it is you think that politics is the best means (or even a remotely desireable or acceptable avenue) to get people to live the way you believe God wishes people to live. Because as someone in a blue state, at someone in New York City, I hear this combination of politics and faith and I get angry and resentful, and I stop listening. Outlawing the things you think are sins will never stop a sin, and because the human race is often weak and petulant in many ways and so this only encourages sin.

I guess my point is, I don't actually have a problem with your beliefs -- I live where I do so I can live the way I want, and I suppose you live where you do for the same reasons. And I don't have a problem with you trying to sway me to your beliefs. But I do have a problem with you doing it through politics. I think it's ineffective. I think it harms your mission, and I think it does anything but bring glory to your God and your faith. In fact I think it reeks of hubris and is disrespectful to your beliefs, to your God and to His creations. It really offends me -- not because it conflicts with how I live, but because some things in this world deserve more respect than you're giving them. Certainly, I would never treat my equivalent of your God the same way.

Anyway, as much as I don't always get where either you red state folks or my dad are coming from when it comes to God, I do wish you red state folks would be more like my dad, and listen to God over preachers and politicians. I don't think you'd hear a different set of rules, but I am deeply convinced you'd hear a different set of tactics, one that I think could only benefit all of us, despite our different goals and ways of being.

Certainly, in the end, it would all shake out a lot more interesting. Shouldn't I choose God, as opposed to being compelled to him?

Flies and honey. Be gentler, I think. Be gentler.

Comments

[grendel.livejournal.com]

Well said.
"Which leads me to wonder why it is you think that politics is the best means (or even a remotely desireable or acceptable avenue) to get people to live the way you believe God wishes people to live. Because as someone in a blue state, at someone in New York City, I hear this combination of politics and faith and I get angry and resentful, and I stop listening. Outlawing the things you think are sins will never stop a sin, and because the human race is often weak and petulant in many ways and so this only encourages sin."

I wondered the same thing. The answer I came to was religion, however much we wish it to not be involved in government, is still there. The topics of this particular election were moral and most morals for most people are derived from their religion. They (the red states), I don't feel, are trying to impose their morals (religion) on us, but trying to not have our religion (morals) imposed on them.

[rm.livejournal.com]

It's the classic freedom from or freedom to debate.

The thing is, you can far easier make your own freedom from. Freedom to, once removed, is far harder to achieve.

[grendel.livejournal.com]

I agree.

Perspective is a difficult thing to modify when people are heated and eventually screaming at each other. No one is right. There is only majority.

I think ultimately, this was a very dreadful election for all involved.

[grendel.livejournal.com]

I also meant this in a purely political manner, for this election.

I believe also, that everyone is working to convert others to their religion or their perspective. It's human nature at it's best and worst. We're pack animals.

[00goddess.livejournal.com]

It seems to me that if you want people to come to your religion or whatever, the absolute best way to do this is by living a good, exemplary life.

I don't proselytize; I am passionate about my beliefs, they are important to me, and if someone asks about them I will explain. But I don't approach random strangers and say to them "Excuse me, but can I have a moment of your time to talk to you about the Law of Thelema?"

However, people do, constantly, come to me, whether in person or via email, and ask me what it is that makes life work for me. People constantly tell me that they like my attitude towards life, and they want to know how I come by it and how to get one of their own. So it's obvious to me that if one's principles are worthy, just living by them "works" better (if you're into that) than does getting in peoples' faces, and trying to shove religion down their throats.

And really, the peope who are into the throat-shoving, why don't they ever ask themselves WHY it's necessary to do it? Why don't they ever think "Hey, if we have to go out and force-feed converts, just why should that be so?"

Re: the social thing: that seems to be something common to certain communities, and to small towns, rather than to the South or even Christians in particular. I live in a pretty large city, and I meet people all the time, just randomly or through my friends. I think that some people (like the chuirch girl) have been deliberately limited in their upbringing; she's been "meeting people" at church all herlife, and she doesn't even KNOW of any other way.

[magicwoman.livejournal.com]

I am spiritual - but I definitely don't try to change anyone and I do not believe church should be mixed up with the state on the local, state or national level. That's just me.

I enjoyed reading your post - very well written. I'll share this with you, I was raised in the church and mostly at my own insistence. My parents weren't particularly religious but believed the children should be raised in the church. So every Sunday we were carted off to Sunday school. When I reached the 6th grade I had a huge interest in the church and switched from my parents church (I never saw my parents in church - ever) to what I wanted to check out.

I've always been independent and sought my own answers. That doesn't always rub the right way with my family (who are now extremely religious - and I know they all voted for Bush). I mostly leave them alone and do my own thing.

When you mentioned your co-worker from Tennessee and her comments, it struck a cord with me. I lived in Tennessee when I was a teen and attended church (again at my own insistence) anywhere from 4 to five times a week. It was not only social but religious.

As a young adult, I continued my quest on my own and attended independent churches. Often attending anywhere from 1 to 3 times a week. When I turned 26 I had a religious revelation (again, just me) and couldn't get enough of seeking out God (or a higher power). I found a church that had services 7 days a week (depended on the part of the year, the church had a tent up during the spring and summer months). I often attended anywhere from 5-7 times a week. This kept up for 4-5 years. I then stopped going completely and searched on my own - with no church influence at all and attended no church at all. That's pretty much where I am today - I don't attend church, but I do my own quiet seeking.

TMI?

I also have a life-long friend in Tennessee (her parents and my grandparents were neighbors, so I've known her since the day I was born). She just sent this e-mail to me:

"I am so glad the election is over and that Bush won! Looks like the christians got out and voted. Kerry and his wife are scarry. I think she must be a drunk. Did you vote? I voted last week. Tn had early voting and that made it easier than standing in line.

. . .

Sorry, I didn't read the read of your e-mail before I sent one back to you. You have to put your voting ballots in a box? We have electronic machines and do not have any ballot boxes. I don't understand why the states are different. Looks like we would all have the same machines. At least Florida wasn't a problem this time and it wasn't so close. You have to know who I was for. I am definitely not for abortion and it kills me to think about it. I just think Mrs. Heinz-Kerry just looks like a drunk. I am so thankful that the christian people voted for a chrisitian and also that the ban on same sex marriage was shot down. That says a lot about Americans I think. I am just so glad it is over!

Have a great day!"

It saddens me that religion has seemingly become the driving force when electing the president. I am also shocked at the tone of my best friends e-mail. I'm still formulating what to write back to her.

Oh well, enough of my life story.

Thank you for such lovely posts!

Susan

[miep.livejournal.com]

i would love to meet people at church. i had great church friends as a kid, people i didn't hang out with at school, but we sat together at services and such -- i think i was the only one who was there by choice.

but then again, my church is the one that the international anglican community thinks should be sanctioned for wanting to bless same sex unions and for electing to the bishopric a gay man who lives with his partner.

i get really, really sad when evangelicals talk about politics. it breaks my heart...

[sethg]

A lot of evangelicals agree with you. Read Christian America? What Evangelicals Really Want, ISBN 0-520-23470-7.

I would say more, but if I start now, I'll spend the next half hour on this one LJ comment. Read the book, or at least borrow it from the library and skim the survey results in the back. Lots of thought-provoking stuff.

[adriang.livejournal.com]

It always strikes me as incredibly ironic when fundamentalist Christians claim to have the moral high ground. There is an interesting article at Philosoraptor. about this issue.

Adrian

[delchi.livejournal.com]

Shouldn't I choose God, as opposed to being compelled to him?

IMHO the concoep of being able to choose God is fairly recent. Back in the bad old days, or as Spider J. said " Back when our brains were not as developed as they are now and we halucenated on a dialy basis " [1] , the idea of chosing a god was a basis of competition. There were many many gods ( and goddesses ) out there - all with mortal agents vying for numbers. Each one had a frantic to two screaming about how if you didn't align with the god of steel then someone would kill you , and across the street you are told that the god of weather would never grant you rain unless you woshiped him, and as you were debating all this the god of wrath represenatitive would tell you that if you align with him all of your foes would be crushed into sand. In the end people came to a decision and put their hearts, minds and money into their choice. Now we have a handful of mainstream religions , and yes some still try to scare you into buying their $19.95 prayer beads or donating so that the doghouse can have a new air conditioner - but in reality you don't get bombarded on your walks through the city ( that much ) , and if you do it's by people who are treated with little regard. Miracles flourished on a daily basis, whereby all we have now is the occational blueberry muffin with the face of a religous figure baked into it to send our people on a pilgrimage.[2]

We are at liberty now to choose a system of worship ( or none at all ) with much less of the competition ( which IMHO was mostly commercial ), and armed with knowledge of how / why things work in the world we are less moved by " Miracles " such as an eclipse, or a really bad thunderstorm on a particular date.

Still, we will always have the people who look for it, and find it. I remember someone showing me the way to fold a one dollar bill so that some part of it looks like the twin towers on fire.

In the end, religion is a personal issue that we all have to arrive at on our own. We owe it to ourselves to make the decision with the thoughts & opinions of others, and not their undue influence. We also owe it to the world to excercize our religous choice without forcing it on others.



[1] Transmetropolitian, the religion issue ( I forget the number )

[2] However, Out here, every summer the highway is littered with people who walk so many miles to go to a little dirt and timber church where in theory the dirt therein heals everything.

[delchi.livejournal.com]

Ps : Wow, I can't type, and my spellcheck took a vacation. Sorry.

[debg.livejournal.com]

There is a school of thought - I'm sitting in the third row, with my notebook, right there - that believes fanaticism isn't the extreme of belief or faith, but rather its opposite. Every fanatic is desperately trying to silence that horrible little voice of doubt, even if it means screaming down the planters of that doubt seed.

If that's true, then the number of fanatics we have at present is genuinely appalling. It goes back to Arnaud at the siege of Beziers, ordering his people to kill everyone in the town, because "God would know his own."

Kill 'em all and let God sort out the pieces.

There's no gentleness there.