HBP stuff - not in order, very spoilery

[rm]

I thoguht I was going to come out of this thinking where he stood was ambiguous, but no, I'm almost sure he's not evil.

Why?

1. He never throws a curse at Harry after he kills Dumbledore, he's jsut trying to get the kid to back off and get out of the fray.

2. Wow, Fawkes does nothing in 95% of this book, but he sure gets mentioned constantly, as does Dumbledore's burnt hand. I think this is telling us the man can come back from fire.

3. As I've mentioned before, agreeing to protect Draco at any cost? This is the only act Snape can commit that is loyal both to Dumebledore and his old friends.

4. The argument with Dumbledore in the woods? I think Snape's intent was that if he wound up in a position where upholding the unbreakable voew meant something awful, he was willing to die for not fufilling it. And I think that he was furious that Dumebledore (and circumstances) were putting him in a position where his hands can't ever be clean. I mean, it's one thing to be a spy for Dumbledore, but to have this man send him back to the Death Eaters and be forced to take refuge with them for the sake of the cause?

5. Dumbledore knew Malfoy was trying to kill him. Dumbledore, for whatever reason chose not to come up with any good reason to find a way for that situation to resolve without Severus killing him.

6. Severus stupifies Flitwick to get the girls in the hall to run in after him. Hermione in particular needs to be kept safe, as a mudblood and a notorious and annoying one, she's going to be a prime target in this mess.

7. As others have noted, Snape and Dumbledore are both accomplished at Occulemency -- what do you think was passing between them in that moment, huh?

8. We know at teh end of Book 5 Snape has been sent back to the Death Eaters. This is it kids. Not Voldemort kicking him around a room. Not with Lucius in Azkaban and Snape being smart.




Dude, this guy has the _worst_ life.

1. First the whole Half-Blood Prince thing charmed me. It charmed me that it was a play on his mother's name. It charmed me that it was no big magical thing but just the scribblings of a random boy in a random text book. Sure the boy was brilliant, and sure the stupid name was a desperate act of self-invention taken from what had become his probably quasi-secret rolemodel (Lord Voldemort), but it was the still the act of a grasping child and reminded me so deeply of when we named our clique in high school and all yried to give ourselves fabulous names. It reminds me how so much of what I seem to know about this acting business comes from being into David Bowie and Oscar Wilde as a child -- one must invent the self, and make it the prodct. Clearly, it's not something I've entirely outgrown or I wouldn't admire the people I do today, but oh god... I _felt_ that.

2. Making that vow for Draco (without hesitation), killing Dumbeldore and finally taking the DAtDA job knowing that it's cursed and knowing why? Regardless of what side he's on, these are the actions of a man who does not expect to be alive in a year's time. And he does them anyway. And while he rages he never balks.

3. Dumbledore still knows something about Snape we don't, and him begging for people to find Severus as the whole fucking mess is going down, breaks my heart.

4. That horrible, horrible confrontation with Harry after Dumbledore's death. Snape can't keep his fucking head around Harry and almost doesn't. He's allergic. He can't be rational and his rage at Harry calling him a coward is so agonizing, so desperate especially as there's that moment when it becomes more important than anything else that's just happened, especially if one considers that what he's just had to do (as per my theory about why he's not evil). As an adult Snape has _never_ been a coward. And it's such a wound in light of the events of that night and Harry's resemblence to his father. And it shouldn't matter, but he'll never get over it. And this is a man trying to get by on what is enough, and it's like people are leaving him nothing. He knows he may die without anyone ever knowing the truth of him, whose side he was on and he will not have this _child_ who dredges up such old wounds for him plant doubt in the one place it does not exist -- his own heart.

5. After Harry uses that eviscerating curse on Draco -- the look on Snape's face -- that was devestation. That was someone who just wanted to throw up an then had to swing into action once again because there were so many people involved.

6. As others have noted Snape is a man in exile from everyone, including himself, including the only thing he ever really had that resembled friends even if they were horrid, and he must spend every day betraying them.

7. Dumbledore may have saved Snape's life and in doing so may have held out redemption in front of him, but while there is redemption for Snape ultimately, possibly in the eyes of others, how full of rage he must be in this, to know that his hands will never be clean, that no one will ever bother about the state of his soul, that if there's a dirty, awful job he will always be the one to do it, because why does a little more blood matter? And I think it does matter to him desperately, and I think the degree to which it makes him want to hate those he owes such a debt to and actually value him for his capabilities -- it was gutwrenching to read and must be choking to live.

I just... there were so many points I couldn't even speak it was so awful to me.




And other stuff:

1. The scene ith Harry and Dumbledore trying to get the Horcrux is spectacular.

2. The note in the locket? Does this mean "Voldeort I hope you become mortal so you will be killed" or does this mean "I miss my friend, and would like to see him once more whole before his necessary demise"?

3. Hermione and Ron? Not as icky as I thought.

4. Bill. I love Bill. This is hard.

5. Fleur. Yay French bitch!

6. Percy? Aren't you a Death Eater yet?

7. Dear Lucius, How's prison?

8. Does Draco have the Mark yet or not?

9. Remus and Tonks? I'm of the Remus and Sirius were together, that is what JKR wants us to think, and I still sort of like this, even if it's kind of yicky from a "let us be a comfort to each other over the one who truly owns our hearts." Poor things.

10. Is there a good equivalent of a Horcrux? Whether there is or not, does Dumbledore have one? Snape?

11. We see Harry do a lot of really Slytheran and occassionally really fucked up shit in this book, in a way that goes pretty much unremarked (at least with that context). Nice.

12. All this love is the only thing that can save you business? Written in a way that occassionally made me giggle like an ass, but not bad. Using is as "why Snape's evil" sorry folks. All love doesn't look the same. I think it's in there.

13. That Determination, Destination whatever the hell it is thing -- the three D's? Sent me into fits of laughter over and over. Because it felt like the wizarding worlds "Communication, Transportation, Accomodation and ... Hair."

14. The Dementors are _breeding_?

15. Kicky scratchy!

16. Malfoy walking around with a girl under each arm and it turns out to be polyjuiced Crabbe and Goyle??? Lol. I don't want to read it, but I hope to god some corner of fandom just exploded over that.

Comments

[orien.livejournal.com]

I have to email you about this, later. Particularly points #6 and #7 on your Snape compassion list.

[rm.livejournal.com]

Mmm. Yes, please.

[orien.livejournal.com]

Right now, I'm vacillating wildly between, "Auuuuuugh," and a post-traumatic reaction of dead silence. Oh, and occasional moments of, Fuck you, you British bitch, and other inappropriate reactions.

I hope to be coherent after I sleep.

[rm.livejournal.com]

Did you finish?

[orien.livejournal.com]

An hour and a half ago or so; I don't remember.

Avada kedavra, has never seemed quite so brutal.

And all right, as a side note, brought on by trying to visualize the "look of hatred," if Snape is past the point of redemption, utterly, then is that moment akin to Roy Batty killing Tyrell in Blade Runner?

[rm.livejournal.com]

That just knocked the breath out of me.

[thefirethorn.livejournal.com]

I had to take a nap afterwards. Although I didn't believe it until Faux started his until-now-unheard singing. In fact, I haven't actually read the end yet.

[karnythia.livejournal.com]

I'm glad Harry has finally begun to calculate his moves instead of just leaping. As for Snape, I can see your point, but dude, he needs to get over the thing with Harry. Whatever James and the Marauders did to him, Harry had nothing to do with it. Harry has stayed convinced that Snape was evil because Snape acts so damned evil, and it really makes it look like Dumbledore has misplaced his trust. Plus, Dumbledore's comments about his mistakes being bigger because his intelligence is bigger? I think Snape may be the biggest mistake of his life, I think he expected Snape to fake his death, not to actually kill him.

[lachupacabra.livejournal.com]

why should he get over it?
james & the marauders TORMENTED him & then nearly KILLED him for FUN
& nobody did a damned thing about it. i think that might make me a little
bitter & resentful too. ive known teachers who took the crap an older brother
or sister did out on a younger sibling so why not a parent? seems to me snape
has every reason to hate harry (& everything & everyone). his whole life has been
about sacrifice & keeping quiet so it makes sense that he needs to allow himself
to vent about *something*...even if it is all about how he hates harry.
:)

[karnythia.livejournal.com]

Because Harry had nothing to do with what the Marauder's did? Oh wait, yeah that's exactly the reason to get over it. Teachers that do it are wrong, as are parents. And if he wants to vent, why not vent at Dumbledore and the rest that did nothing? They certainly bear more responsibility than Harry.

[orien.livejournal.com]

As Harry is a carbon copy of his father (except for the eyes, blah blah, remind us in every book), Snape would certainly not be the first person to react viciously and vehemently toward someone who is innocent of the original crime solely for committing the sin of resembling an abuser.

[karnythia.livejournal.com]

I never said it was a surprise, but he's an adult and he knows better. I'm particularly not fond of him, now that I know he set Voldemort off after Harry in the 1st place.

[lachupacabra.livejournal.com]

it may be wrong but it happens.

mostly, i guess i just mean that im not surprised that he reacts to harry that way.

not exactly saying he's right or wrong (altho im sure you can tell i have a great deal
of sympathy for him & can relate to where he seems to be coming from) im just
saying thats the way things are sometimes. we dont always make the best choices
especially if we think we're justified in making them.

better?
:)

[karnythia.livejournal.com]

Better. I suppose my issue is that he got his revenge on James and it was a bitter pill (at least according to Dumbledore) and one would think he'd have learned from the experience.

[lachupacabra.livejournal.com]

boy!! wouldnt that be nice!!!
;)
i wish i could say that ive learned from experience
rather than learning far too many things the hard way !!!!!
(i cant)

i *can* SO so SO relate to where snape is coming from tho.

i cant help but identify with his feelings of bitterness & loss
(& most of all, with having to live with the consequences of the choices we make)

i know how it feels to want something you KNOW youre never
going to have & whats more, to have to watch other ppl, ppl
you really dislike (ok hate) having/not appreciating/maybe
even squandering those things while you would kill to have
even the slightest chance to be in their shoes.

should he move on & just forget about it? sure.
does that mean he will? its doubtful.

personally, i always want to see someone like that to come into
their own & be able to use their skills & talents to shine...

its sad that a lot of ppl in that situation are just too beat down to even bother trying.

altho i think with snape there was definitely a point where
he DID want that (& he did have the talent for it) but circumstances
were such that he was stuck paying for those bad choices & because
of that, was never able to make as much of himself as his potential
would have allowed... & im sure thats something he never forgets.
:(

[karnythia.livejournal.com]

Valid, I am the sort that learns from experience, there's a running joke that I only make a mistake once and then I never make it again. So I don't understand his holding on to the hate that keeps fucking up his life.

[ladypeculiar.livejournal.com]

12. All this love is the only thing that can save you business? Written in a way that occassionally made me giggle like an ass, but not bad.

I think this is one of the keys to Dumbledore's eventual ressurection/whatever's going to happen. Like, I imagine it's not as hokey as "A supreme act of love wins you immortality as a phoenix!" but it just might.

J.K. has always been pretty careful to avoid the "people do dark magic because dark magic is COOLER, (i.e. on the Dark Side of the Force you can shoot lightening from your hands and on the Good Side you can . . .er . .levitate stuff sometimes). I think that this is all building up towards come community act between Harry, Ron and Hermoine (so the prophecy isn't really all that true like Dumbly was ranting about) in order to finish LV-- he won't be able to do it completely alone.

But laws, I'm so drained today.

[rm.livejournal.com]

She does avoid "Dark Magic is cooler" but I don't think she avoids, "smart people get into trouble because they're bored at school" -- we see it in Tom and we see it in Snape.

And as to the community death of Voldemort -- yeah, like the chess game.

[orien.livejournal.com]

But smart people do get into trouble because they're bored.

Look at me, look at you, look at virtually everyone we can mutually tolerate.

I think it's some terrible train inherent to Slytherins. When bored, one may:

- commit acts of world domination
- commit acts of cruelty/abuse on others for fun, profit, or the pure senseless destruction
- commit acts of same on self
- all of the above

Snape turned the knife on himself at some point. Voldemort turned it outward.

[rm.livejournal.com]

Yeah. there's a lot of "just wanting to see what would happen" with Snape, and when that blows up in his face, it's all self-injurious from there on out.

[lachupacabra.livejournal.com]

this is awesome, insightful & perfect.
:D

[zarq.livejournal.com]

*grin*

A lot to absorb. Must say I'm not entirely sure I agree with all your conclusions about Snape, though. But I'll ponder them more deeply in another response.

Do you think there's any possibility Dumbledore isn't dead? Is it possible that Snape's Avada Kedavra might not have killed Dumbledore? (I realize that a burial tends to give it finality...) In the last book, Belatrix LeStrange explains that Unforgivable curses can only work if the wizard invoking them really want them to succeed. They need to be cast from a source of hatred.

Oh, and R.A.B. really is too easy a clue. I am curious about how that all works out, though.

[rm.livejournal.com]

But do they need to be cast from a _relevant_ source of hatred?

I think the identity of RAB might be too easy too and it'snot who we think.

[ladypeculiar.livejournal.com]

Oh, and dude, his being buried at Hogwarts has to be a major something, since it goes against tradition. Maybe Gryffindor had another secret chamber like Slytherin did? Dumbly can come back as a big snake?

Good god it's hot in this office.

[keever.livejournal.com]

Re: the locket: When I first read it, I thought the latter, now that I've looked at it again, I believe it has to be the former. It seems Regulus (I'm assuming that it's him) really did have a change of heart about the DE mission.

[askeladden.livejournal.com]

I've heard a few people bring up the idea, but I'm kind of surprised that Dumbledore's death doesn't look like a mercy killing to everybody. That hit me as soon as Dumbledore started begging Harry to kill him after drinking the potion (which seemed to be something important and full of clues, the way he was screaming and cowering -- essence of dementor juice or something? If so, Dumbledore's worst memory seems to be of having let innocent people in his protection suffer); even before he sees the Dark Mark at the Three Broomsticks, he's begging for Snape and refusing Madame Pomfrey; that coupled with "it wasn't a health drink" makes me think that he knew he was dying, and just wanted Snape to finish the job so either he wouldn't keep suffering uselessly or wouldn't transform into something horrible as a result of drinking the potion. I even suspect that he might have scouted out the basin before leading Harry there, and maybe Snape's telling him about the Unbreakable Vow had something to do with his self-sacrifice, but I think there must be more to it than that.

Also, I wasn't clever enough to think of it, but R.A.B. = Regulus A* Black, yes? Are there any other possible contenders?

I don't think there can be a good equivalent of a Horcrux; splitting one's soul seemed emphatically to be a very very bad thing. Though I do see certain parallels in the idea of the Patronus.

Also, I so TOTALLY called Snape being the Half-Blood prince as soon as I heard that the annotations in the Potions book were in girly handwriting. Ha!

[rm.livejournal.com]

I also think the mercy killing angle is strongly possible and/or that there are some specific properties of that potion we don't know about... but there was a reason why it had to be Snape, and I think it's more complicated than we yet know.

[orien.livejournal.com]

Also, I so TOTALLY called Snape being the Half-Blood prince as soon as I heard that the annotations in the Potions book were in girly handwriting. Ha!


That portion made me cackle with glee when I read it.

[groovyjuice.livejournal.com]

Also, I wasn't clever enough to think of it, but R.A.B. = Regulus A* Black, yes? Are there any other possible contenders?

It's the logical choice to me, if only because JKR can't --I'd say, in good conscience-- introduce anyone else at this point. You'll notice the only new playing characters were Scrimgeour and Slughorn in this book, and the book could've gotten along without them, really (not knocking them, just saying). If RAB=Regulus, she's already got a partial background, a motive or three, and the ability to bring him back to life, without wasting too much paper to get him integrated into the story.

[frawst.livejournal.com]

I really think that it had to be Snape, because it has to be Harry.

Harry is going to need someone on the inside.
Snape is it, the only one who CAN be on the inside.

Redemption of Snape (re: James AND Harry, and for the whole sure to be ugly reaction to the killing Dumbledore thing)

And Harry has to get over his bitchyness at Snape to do what he's Supposed to Do.

Also: Conclusion of the perfection of Draco. She made him human, now she gets to make him real. He will play a key role (while not being all Gryffendor'y) in the destruction of LV.

[ludimagist.livejournal.com]

Thanks for that, I just finished the book (started it late last night) and am still digesting the end, and now digesting your theories with it.

Speaking of the not really necessarily dead, Sirius's body has never been accounted for. The only proof we really have is that Kreacher listens to Harry.

There is much tying up of loose ends to happen in the next/last book.

[tommx.livejournal.com]

i entirely agree with you about snape. when i read the crucial passage, and dumbledore said "severus, please", he wasn't begging for his life, he was imploring snape to kill him. the frequent mentioning of the phoenix does suggest that dumbledore will be back, either in the flesh or through pulling an obi-wan. either way, we haven't seen the last of him.

the real question i have is what happens to hogwarts. dumbledore was the main driving force of the place, and with him gone, it will be interesting to see who steps up to fill his rather enormous shoes.

the possible redemption of malfoy was also a theme i figured would be coming up sooner or later, and i suspect it ties in with harry's whole "power of love" thingy that he's got going.

[nisaa.livejournal.com]

I think it's going to take me a few days to digest what I've read - both the book and what you wrote here. I only finished the book last night. I'm not convinced Dumbledore is really dead. Your idea of whether there is a good equivalent of a Horcrux is interesting.

And yes, you have managed to convince me that perhaps Snape really isn't evil. Maybe he and Dumbledore planned the Avada Kedavara scene all along - maybe it wasn't real some how. There were flames at Dumbledore's funeral - yes, maybe he will rise again like Fawkes can.

[rm.livejournal.com]

Also maybe Dumbledore died for Hogwarts the way Harry's mom died for him.

[thefirethorn.livejournal.com]

AAAAAAAH!!!! AHHHHHHHHH!!! I LOVE YOU!!!

OK HERE IS MY THEORY

[thefirethorn.livejournal.com]

Snape tells Dumbledore "I took the Umbreakable Vow to help Malfoy kill you. So just out him & send him to Azkaban while I'm out on holiday."

Dumbledore says "Nope, doesn't work with my plan. If it comes down to it, hit me with the big A.V. and I'll be ready for it."

Snape says "Screw it, I'll just die for the love of you."

Dumbledore says "No, do as I say or no pay raise for you."

Snape says "What pay raise? I'll only have the job for one year anway."

Dumbledore says "Then do it or no more Employee's Bathroom privilidges."

So Snape grumbles but does as he is told. Then Dumbledore finds himself on the tower falling over in pain and realizes "Ooops! I drank Voldemort's Soul! If I don't die, Hogwarts will be the property of Voldemorte!" so he calls for Snape knowing Snape can kill him quick. Snape shows up, they have a quick mental talk, and Snape kills him. But Hogwarts is protected forever by Dumbledore's love. The End.

Yay me and my theory!! I shall post it on my journal and take all the credit!!

[rollick.livejournal.com]

Is there a good equivalent of a Horcrux? Whether there is or not, does Dumbledore have one? Snape?

Does his portrait in the headmaster's office count? I'm just presuming he can't come back to life through it, but it seems like a benevolent magic designed so he can play Obi-Wan to Harry's Luke at least one more time.

In general, I think you give Snape a lot more sympathy than I do, which means, of course, more sympathy than he deserves. I think you're right about his ultimate loyalties and intentions, though. Especially the point about how he just can't keep his temper around Harry, no matter the stakes or the plan.

But for me, the ultimate decider is this: It just wouldn't be an interesting story if it turned out he was evil all along and Dumbledore missed it. He's too OBVIOUSLY evil. His tale only becomes interesting when we find out that he's had a good reason for everything he's done, and he isn't just a duck that walks and quacks like a duck but that Dumbledore somehow mistook for a sheep. And JKR has her faults, but being boring and patently obvious generally isn't one of them.

[thefirethorn.livejournal.com]

I agree -- Snape being Really The Bad Guy seems way too easy. It would make more sense if there was something else that we aren't seeing.



The argument with Dumbledore in the woods? I think Snape's intent was that if he wound up in a position where upholding the unbreakable voew meant something awful, he was willing to die for not fufilling it. It reminded me of Jesus arguing with Judas in Last Temptation of Christ.



As others have noted, Snape and Dumbledore are both accomplished at Occulemency -- what do you think was passing between them in that moment, huh?

I have two theories:

1) SNAPE=GOOD rollick is right, and the liquid Dumbledore drank was actually the Horcrux. He was asking Snape to kill him.

or

2) SNAPE=BAD EXACTLY. Dumbledore was good, but Snape was better. In that moment, Dumbledore found out that Snape was the better Occulemencer, and had been fooling him all that time.

Regardless of what side he's on, these are the actions of a man who does not expect to be alive in a year's time.

Wouldn't it be cool if Snape took the Unbreakable Vow knowing that it would kill him, just to prove his loyalty to Dumbledore?

[marsinthestars.livejournal.com]

thanks for the thoughts- the one thing that I keep trying to keep in mind, is that authors occasionally forget a loose end or two. I certainly hope JK Rowling doesn't write an ending leaving out some of these theories that could add so much to her plot...