non-science

[rm]

Sorry, new and improved version. I left out some important options.

I realize this is entirely non-scientific and because LJ skews towards women even more unscientific for that. But I tend to think these little exercises still have their uses and least when it comes to reminding people about privilege (or I may turn out to be totally wrong).

ETA:

to answer some frequent questions:

1. Unwanted contact from a person you are in a relationship with should be read as a sexual overture (possibly entirely appropriate but you weren't in the mood) was made that you rejected, BUT the rejection was then not heeded in a fashion that you feel harmed you/violated your person/rights.

2. I know, I left out a choice for boss/coworker/clergy member/teacher/professional relationship/person in position of authority -- please put it in the acquaintance category. This was noticed too late to redo the poll and I'll note it when I do the results summary post.

3. If you are trans, genderqueer, etc. and want to answer in more than one category based on how you were presenting at the time, that's fine.

4. The way LJ shows the answers to this isn't actually that statistically interesting to what I'm trying to capture, and I will eventually make a post about some other things I'm seeing somewhat buried in the numbers.

5. Yes, your answers are viewable to everyone. There's a point to that too that will be discussed later as well.

6. Feel free to link to this in your own journal.

7. THANK YOU.


[Poll #1175760]

Comments

[darkadaptedeye.livejournal.com]

One thing that I think gets missed in most of these polls, as well as most of these discussions, is a hetero-normative assumption that if "unwanted sexual advances/contact" is something generally done by men-to-women on the one side, whether or not the reflection is women-to-men on the other.

A lost issue is how often men are sexually harassed by other men, because of the massive stigma that either the male recipient was inviting it by "not being masculine enough", or that they're whining because they "weren't man enough" to deal with it themselves.

For every crude douchebag who stands on a corner going "hey baby hey baby" to every girl who walks by, he's probably following it with "hey faggot whatchu lookin' at. you wanna piece of this?" to the guys. Another form of this behavior regularly happens on sidewalks where guys will sometimes walk straight at another to make the other "chicken out" by having to walk around, lest they risk bumping and starting a confrontation.

If these things are suppressed from discussion, or left to the world of "shut up and deal with it yourself", one has to wonder at the number of things like non-reported rapes with male victims.


Or, umm... yeah... Anyway, sorry to hijack this this discussion into another tangent. It's probably better to just leave it with the old LJ gender slant that "all men suck". But one thing I will say is that often a bully is a bully, and an abuser is an abuser, and gender of the victim can be purely incidental. As we all know: just because something isn't reported or discussed, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

[rm.livejournal.com]

I think the most interesting (and surprising) thing I am seeing in the polls so far is that the female respondents seem to have dealt with harrassment/assault from multiple sources with greater frequency than men, but that being a target of harassment/abuse at some point is universal.

[darkadaptedeye.livejournal.com]

I will say upfront that I generally agree on most of your observations. Especially in regards to issues like this.

I've never doubted that women are, and can be, frequently targeted by harassers/abusers. Nor that the vast majority of the harassers/abusers are men. And that yes, often the harassers/abusers do so out of a sense of entitlement. My point is that whereas women are increasingly more open about discussing this, it's an issue that will be vastly underreported by men for at least another generation, if for no other reason, than because to admit to receiving any abuse/harassment would still be considered "not being man enough to take it".


Seriously. I'm 6'2", a former paratrooper, and pretty well tattooed. And I'll admit to the following because I'm comfortable in my own identity and preferences. But in the city I have to play the sidewalk game nearly every day with guys puffing up their chests and trying to walk straight at me, bumping into me, and then mumbling threats as we pass (and I'd prefer to not even touch the related race issues that goes with that). Or space issues in the subway. Additionally, for just a moment, if you think straight men can be pigs in the work place, just imagine how pushy some gay men can be to other men, when given positions of authority or further entitlement.

And if I have to go through this on a regular basis, I can only imagine what others have to deal with. But we almost never discuss this because to do so "wouldn't be manly".

I'm lucky that I choose to not consider myself a victim, and that I do have the power to stand up for myself or stand my ground if needed, and that I can even find a degree humour in analyzing the stupidity of men in general (myself included).

But yeah, many men are total shits and creepwads to other men on a regular basis, reported or discussed or not.

[saltbox.livejournal.com]

is a hetero-normative assumption that if "unwanted sexual advances/contact" is something generally done by men-to-women on the one side

Not for me. It was a woman who raped me.

[00goddess.livejournal.com]

gender of the victim can be purely incidental.

Can be, but usually isn't.

I have to disagree with you about the guy on the corner. Most men who stand on the corner making harassing comments toward women would NEVER make a comment like that toward other men, because a)they don't find men attractive and b)they don't want to be perceived as homosexual.

For the corner guys, intimidating women is, I strongly suspect, a sexual thrill for them. They wouldn't get the same thrill out of harassing a man.

Also, I don't think that, to point to another example of yours, "sidewalk chicken" is sexual harassment. It has naught to do with sex or gender.

[darkadaptedeye.livejournal.com]

Perhaps this is where we start splitting hairs between general harassment and sexual harassment.

If the "guy on the corner" says "Fuck you white boy, I'll kick your ass.", then no, it's not actual sexual harassment.

But, if he says "Fuck you white boy, I'll kick your ass. You fucking faggot." is it then sexual in nature, because perceived masculinity and gender preference have been brought into it?

Or is it not sexual harassment until it's "Fuck you white boy, I'll kick your ass. You fucking faggot. I'll beat you down and put my cock in your ass to teach you a lesson." if then?

Another thing to remember is that among certain cultures, the rapists would consider themselves masculine, while the male victim would be considered the "faggot".

My primary point is that for those type of people, intimidating anyone is a thrill for them. Whoever walks by, and is their victim of the moment, is incidental.

Or by definition here, is something "sexual" simply because the harassing party is male, and the target is female? In comparison, "Hey baby, nice tits. Can I have your number? " sounds far less harassing (if not almost polite, in a sick way) compared to threats of violence.

As for the "sidewalk chicken" example, how often does it happen to you? Seldom enough that you would notice and be upset and make note of it if a guy tries to crowd you off the sidewalk, or frequent enough that it's just another factor of walking in the city? (Just like avoiding dog shit.) If it's not that often, then gender is an issue. And it reinforces that bullies will tend to bully everyone, they may just bully each gender somewhat differently. (It also raises the issue that men tend to deal with these things on a regular basis, but seldom discuss or consider it.)


Then again, perhaps you grew up and live in kinder, gentler neighborhoods than myself.

[00goddess.livejournal.com]

if he says "Fuck you white boy, I'll kick your ass. You fucking faggot." is it then sexual in nature, because perceived masculinity and gender preference have been brought into it?

No, it's not sexual harassment- it's bullying, it's harassment, but not sexual harassment.

I also think that, in order to be sexual harassment, the harassment must be specifically of a sexual nature. The man (or woman) who calls someone a faggot because it's an insult isn't a sexual harasser; the guy who says "Hey faggot, come suck my dick," IS a sexual harasser. And I don't think that sexual harassment is something that only men do (comments like that, btw, belie your assertion that you don't consider yourself a victim. Your comments have "I am an aggrieved male" written all over them.)

As for the "sidewalk chicken" example, how often does it happen to you?

Not often, but when it does, the perpetrators are exclusively male. However, I almost never even see men do that to one another. I guess men here have different ways of asserting their masculinity. Even my male partner has had it happen to him only a handful of times in his entire life.

I'm not disputing your assertion that bullies bully everyone; I dispute your assertion that all bullying is sexual harassment. Sexual harassment, in fact, isn't even always bullying. The harasser who thinks that s/he is a genuinely nice person and that they would make the victim very happy is still a harasser.

perhaps you grew up and live in kinder, gentler neighborhoods than myself.

Oh, yawn. While I do live in a nice neighborhood now (by "nice" I mean "clean and relatively safe", not "wealthy") I spent my teens & early 20s in the Gulfton Ghetto. I'm no stranger to homelessness, poverty, and very bad neighborhoods.