has everyone gone insane?

[rm]

Olbermann vs. Hannity reaches new levels of batshittery:

http://www.wowowow.com/politics/olbermann-pony-big-money-every-second-hannity-waterboarded-video-276465

via nancylebov

Comments

[thornsilver]

has everyone gone insane?

Yes.

[lovefromgirl.livejournal.com]

Yes. Yes, I'm pretty sure they have.

[bravencrazy.livejournal.com]

I'd pay to seem both waterboarded. I wonder what that makes me? Oh, that's right: the word is misanthrope.

[antelope-writes.livejournal.com]

It's not have they "gone" there, it's how long have we been there.

That there is still this level of debate over whether a mock execution is torture appalls me in ways I physically can't express.

[stardragonca.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty much hoping that the Crazy Years have crested.

[heron61.livejournal.com]

I agree. I'm also fairly certain that in 10-15 years the first history books describing the 7 or 8 years after September 11 as a strange & disturbing episode of collective madness in the US will be published and read by puzzled college students too young to remember how insane things were.

[stardragonca.livejournal.com]

Actually, Robert Heinlein coined the phrase in the Thirties to describe his fictional future history. The Crazy Years are the last half of the 20th century, and the very first part of the 21st.

He wasn't trying to prognosticate, he just wanted a fictional framework for stories that would seem plausible.

His reasoning was:a)nobody in the dominant culture really believes that anything is going to change;b)everything IS going to change;and c)frustrated expectations make people become unhinged.

Good call.

[random-girl.livejournal.com]

Those particular two people were already at the insane finish line when the race started.

[rm.livejournal.com]

I have a certain peculiar empathy with Olbermann's crazy both because of the "I abuse Republicans with big words" factor and the celiac disease, but yes, you're probably right.

[weirdquark]

About a year or so ago, I was pointed at something written by a conservative blogger. He said that he had been following the "is waterboarding torture" debate and wasn't sure, so he decided to test it himself. I don't remember where he started, but he said he worked his way up through more extreme versions. The first iterations weren't too bad, he said. But when he was upside down with a cloth over his mouth pouring water over his head, even though he was controlling everything and knew he could stop at any point, he said he kept thinking "I'm drowning; I'm going to die." And after that he concluded waterboarding is torture.

So really? I'm all for anyone who doesn't think this shit is torture to try it out themselves.

[rm.livejournal.com]

Yup, I remember, and I agree.

But Hannity needs to do it or not. But watching men goad each other into it (which I suspect is the next step -- Hannity will issue some rejoinder that will challenge Olbermann to same): ugh, the worst of our culture and dicksizing bullshit I can imagine.

[heron61.livejournal.com]

That's an excellent point.

[klwalton.livejournal.com]

Christopher Hitchens. He's kind of interesting in that he started his political life left-wing. There have been many iterations of him since. Wikipedia attempts to put its finger on his politics.

But, yes, he submitted to waterboarding. His article is here.

Edited to correct spelling.

[rm.livejournal.com]

I am about 80%.

Some conservative blogger tried it and changed his mind; Hannity, having mouthed off carelessly about it should too.

And hey, money to charity, rad.

But there's something very squicky to me about two guys involved in the worst sort gender essentialism masculinity competition on national cable having this feud take this particular turn. Sooner or later someone is going to demand the other "be a real man" and I'm going to be unhappy.

[thornsilver]

Is it easier to just compare dick length?

[ferriludant.livejournal.com]

I don't see this as gender essentialistic masculinity competition (okay, caveat: I'm a man)....

I see it as essentially a confrontation between voices of two conflicting movements: On one hand, the educated, compassionate, passionate truthteller faction, and on the other, the "fuck the weak, I've got mine, jack - and who are you going to believe: me, or your lying eyes" faction.

Yeah, I'm in Olbermann's camp on this and on so much more.

[rm.livejournal.com]

It's the style of argumentation (which I fully admit to enjoying from Olbermann) that concerns me, but then I spend an inordinate time being a female person in an activity related to the honour of men of a certain class. And while even one of my fencing masters is female, I can't forget that not only would I not have the right to such arms in the times the work I study was actively used, I would not have even been considered to have a soul.

I use phrases like "man up" all the time and I try to weasel it and say that I can or that it's different or whatever, because sometimes I'm dressing/presenting as a man. But I do, in truth, intellectually believe that sort of discourse is toxic and enforcing of harmful norms and expectations on all genders.

I've heard Olbermann tell people to "be a man" on the program. I have cheered it in the moment and I have agreed with it in concept. But it's a language use I dislike, especially from someone so viciously articulate, and that particular tonal quality particularly tends to infuse the MSNBC vs. Fox drama, and I wish it wouldn't. It doesn't need to.

[ferriludant.livejournal.com]

Okay, completely granted: "be a man", and "man up" are *obviously* gender-normative phrases, and toxic in many ways.

But I didn't catch those phrases in the video. Perhaps I missed it. What I did see was Olbermann calling Hannity on a particularly egregious instance of crass, brutish, pseudo-populism, relating to a hugely important issue.

Incidentally, I wouldn't have been allowed to carry a sword in that period either, because my birth doesn't place me in the right class. There were *lots* of things which sucked back then.

But the swords were cool. :)

[rm.livejournal.com]

Nope, hasn't happened on this topic yet. Has happened between Olbermann and Hannity (and other MSNBC people) on other topics. I really, really don't want to see it here.

And yup on the swords. I wrote you this long comment and then was like "oh god, this is either boring or he already knows this" and deleted half of it.

[ferriludant.livejournal.com]

Heh. I deleted nearly twice what I ended up posting, too. For different reasons, I expect, but a thoughtful exchange is worthwhile, neh?

[marzipan-pig.livejournal.com]

Well, and life-threatening experiences can seriously emotionally scar people (or bring out existing emotional scars); I don't like stuff like this being used as a 'challenge'.

[rm.livejournal.com]

It also, even as it attempts to make people grok the practice of torture, somehow turns it into an extreme sport.

[ophymirage.livejournal.com]

While I am behind Keith, in hopes that Hannity might actually pull a Christopher Hitchens (the conservative reporter y'all are referring to), what I'm more worried about is that exactly the opposite will happen: Hannity will go through some modified form of waterboarding, come up at the end of it, and go "See, totally fine, THIS IS NOT TORTURE."

I don't want ANYONE to have the ability to reinforce the talking point that near-drowning a suspect somehow isn't torture because some braying jackass did it on TV.

[heron61.livejournal.com]

I must admit that the prospect of Sean Hannity being waterboarded pleases me. Perhaps he will even get a clue that its torture.

[abnormal-apathy.livejournal.com]

THIS!

[nekosensei.livejournal.com]

Yep...I agree with you. He shot off his mouth. Now it's time for him to put his money where his mouth is.

[tsarina.livejournal.com]

I seem to recall that last year one of the writers at Vanity Fair went through waterboarding to see what it was like, in a controlled situation with some military consultant. He only lasted a couple seconds before blind terror set in and he freaked.

I will pony up money for charity to see the FOX people waterboarded. Every cent I have!

[stardragonca.livejournal.com]

I hoping things go horridly wrong, and they both drown live on national TV.
Preferably Fox. Preferably in prime time.

[bravencrazy.livejournal.com]

For. The. WIN!!!!!!!!!!!

[stardragonca.livejournal.com]

Please, no applause, just throw money!

[stardragonca.livejournal.com]

* I'm hoping

[nobodyreally.livejournal.com]

I would support the sponsors of a mass waterboarding of media from Faux and MSNBC. Starting with Matthews, Hannity, Olbermann and O'Reilly - can we get the last of these in a pair? The mutual obsession seems to call for it. Maddow and Shep "This is America, we don't fucking torture" Smith can emcee.

Seriously, I wish they would all get over themselves and each other. In that order.