*headdesk*

[rm]

Talked to parents. Still in denial. Dad is writing a sequel to his Bible.

Comments

[lllvis.livejournal.com]

hmm...well...at least it sounds like it didn't turn into a rant-fest. At least that part ought to be good!

[wurmwyd.livejournal.com]

Hi there!

You know, I remember back in college, I looked up Leviticus 18:22, where it says that guys aren't supposed to sleep with other guys. Then I looked up Leviticus 18:23, where it says that guys shouldn't lie down with animals, nor should girls lie down with animals. If you keep reading the rest of Leviticus, it talks about how guys shouldn't lie down with their moms, sisters, grandmoms, aunts, great aunts, first cousins, second cousins; and that women shouldn't have sex with their dads, brothers, uncles, great uncles, grandpas, first cousins, second cousins, people named Ted, yada yada yada.

They never actually got around to saying that it was an abomination for a woman to lie with another woman.

I told my brother, and he said: "Because even in the Bible, lesbians are cool.

So really, your parents have nothing to be upset about. [hugs]

[mobobocita.livejournal.com]

A sequel to his Bible? Why?

[kalmn.livejournal.com]

oy!

if you'd like, i'm sure the associated talent on your flist could come up with scripts for your next few calls to them.

or we could donate for a singing telegram.

[rm.livejournal.com]

Well, answering that would require me to know why he wrote his own version of the bible (that he's self publishing!) in the first place.

[rahalia-cat.livejournal.com]

Don't tell me; Jesus woke up in the shower and it was all just a bad dream?

[punzel.livejournal.com]

erg. Sorry to hear that. 'cause you're still the same person, except now they know that you have a connection, a relationship in your life.

Should be good news.

[mobobocita.livejournal.com]

*laugh*

Wow. Talk about unique parents. Maybe it's an improved version?

[lllvis.livejournal.com]

oh I am SO stealing that icon!!

[mobobocita.livejournal.com]

Go right ahead, I don't know who created it, but it seemed appropriate.

[heron61.livejournal.com]

Are you certain they actually got the letter? While the odds are very high, perhaps they simply don't know. OTOH, from what you have said about them, I can see this happening. I suppose that if you wish to keep attempting to have them deal with this that the next step is asking if you can bring your SO along on the next family visit that would be appropriate for an SO to come along to.

[rm.livejournal.com]

I dated a man for years and years who never met my family. There's no reason to subject her to this.

Ann Landers

[keith418.livejournal.com]

Ann Landers once wrote, "If you feel the need to fill your parents in on the details of your sex life, then you are too immature to have one." While I agree with this quote, and I know it doesn't really apply to "coming out", I still feel that a measure of it might apply.

I know you're an only child, but I still think you're too old to have your parents feelings about this matter so much to you. I love my parents, and their approval means a lot to me too, but - at the same time - I realize that it's not the be all and end all.

The moral high ground here is knowing that you will always love them no matter how they react to the news and, ultimately, you have to be okay with you regardless of how freaked out they are - or how PFLAG they are. I would encourage them to see the comic side of this whole deal and be as warm and as understanding as you can be - to model the same attitude you expect from them. The more you can do this, the better you'll be able to rise above the crap and... smile.

Re: Ann Landers

[rm.livejournal.com]

This has very little to do with approval, or a discussion of my sex life with my parents. Heterosexual children mention their SOs to their parents all the time without being told they are immature for attempting to discuss their sex lives with their parents. I simply want to be able to mention who I'm dating with the same degree of casualness and general courtesy as I would get were the indivual(s) in question in any given situation male.

Similarly, I would think, although clearly, I would be wrong, that my parents would at least grok that writing such a letter might cause some degree of stress, and that I'd at least like to know if it were received. Certainly, I would be more than satisfied with an exchange acknowledging that they received it and perhaps don't know what to say. Because of course, there isn't much to say! Which is what I would tell them, then end, fine and dandy. Of course, I should have thought of this before I wrote the damn thing, and perhaps realized the need for explicit requests as regards communication with them.

Me?

[keith418.livejournal.com]

Believe me, straight as I am, I spared my parents a lot of the details about various SOs I had. The case still applies. Coming out to your parents is a big deal and I won't mimimize it. But I have to say that, even though you have a lot of issues with your parents, they still seem to matter so much to you. Of all the people I know of your age on LJ, you still seem the most consumed by your parents and their opinions. I have read your LJ for years and it's something I've noticed.

Again, if it was my kid... getting a letter? I'd wish they would have told me in person.

Re: Ann Landers

[feyandstrange.livejournal.com]

As a former queer educator, I've got to disagree.

There is a huge, huge difference between "the details of my sex life" and not being able to introduce my parents to my wife without a political discussion.

Your statements about "approval" come off as condescending. I don't need anyone's approval of my partner, but I'd like to have her join me at the family dinner I'm hosting without my mother throwing Bibles at her. Informing my parents that my female life partners exists, and will be present, in my life and at my dinner party, is only polite.

Re: Ann Landers

[feyandstrange.livejournal.com]

It would be more polite of them (switching hats to Miss Manners) to acknowledge the letter and its contents in some way. Such a large and tricky disclosure is not something to ignore.

You could ask them, politely, if they received the letter you sent last week, and see what that provokes. It can be tricky to tell (certainly for me, not knowing them and not having details) whether they're in denial, gobsmacked into silence, or offended in some way, or what.

Regardless, they should treat your girlfriend as they would treat any similar male attachment of such duration at this point, and if they don't, you may politely request that they not neglect her.

?

[keith418.livejournal.com]

I do not want to condescend or mimimize anyone's pain about their parents' problems with their sexuality. In fact, I recognize that even the most supportive-seeming parents may be struggling against deeply buried homophobic feelings and problems. But to agonize about it past a certain point seems to me to be granted it all too much power. Ultimately, we and our parents - no matter what our issues are - have to go and live our own lives.

I think that some of us may be too concerned about what our parents think... period. If that observation is somehow politically incorrect, I'm sorry, but that's what I think. I support rm and if her parents do not deal with this as well as we would hope they should, I will be disapointed with them. On the other hand, I would hate to think their failings would influence her one tiny but more than they need to.

Re: Ann Landers

[schmidtybooger.livejournal.com]

Oh god. Icon LOVE.

[raaven.livejournal.com]

Me too, it's marvelous!

[raaven.livejournal.com]

So...nothing at all? That's gotta be a bit frustrating.

Being me, which is to say, one to not leave uncertainties in limbo, I'd flat out ask 'em about it. Something like..."Did you get my letter? Is there anything you'd like to discuss with me about it? No? Okay. If that changes in the future, give me a poke" or alternatively "Yes? Okay, when do you want to get together?".

Does that seem like a possibility for your situation?

[rm.livejournal.com]

Somewhat, yeah. Although I'm going to take the reprieve because I have a crazy week and I'm still ill. When these things are resolved, then that is probably what will happen.

Re: Ann Landers

[tsarina.livejournal.com]

How does that quote apply? That doesn't make any sense to me. All she wants to clearly acknowledge the major relationship in her life, not tell them about her sex life. Would it be immature if I wanted to tell my Alabama relatives that I was dating a black man? Or heaven forfend, a woman? Maybe some of us would like not to have to lie to our family and hide who and what we are. I'm not saying I need to tell my grandmother that I like to suck cock and fuck girls, but damn it if I wouldn't like to be able to say, "Hey this is my girlfriend Maria here at the dinner table."

No Lying...

[keith418.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't want anyone to have to lie to their parents about their sexuality. The point is the investment you have in their reaction. At a certain stage, we all need to be independent from the feelings and beliefs of our parents. They, and their attitudes, can no longer dictate to us. I have noticed this sort of trade-off before. We want our parents to accept us as we are - but are we ready, always, to accept them as they are? We resist their imposition of their issues on to us. But don't we seek to tell them how to feel and to react? All encounters on this level demand a trade-off - acceptance isn't a one-way street. rm should have to pretend about anything, but neither should her parents, should they? If we want our feelings to be recognized as legitimate, if we want people to accept us as we are, mustn't we be ready to do the same for others?

[fuyukodachi.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I came out to my mother about being bi and being poly in a letter, and she said nothing about it for a year, until I brought it up, and I got the same thing when I told her I was trans. If you Don't Talk About It, It Will Go Away.


I don't know - if my crazy mother can eventually get the fuck over it, I have some hope for your parents. And I'll say openly that "needing your parents approval" guy is pissing me off, because feeling rejected and unwanted by your family on the basis of something as integral as your sexual or gender identity is one of the most hurtful things I've ever experienced. It's a soul-wound; your parents are supposed to love and accept and encourage you, and mine never did, and yours are occasionally very shitty as well.

Since we're both currently unwell, I'd like to propose doing something in early May, when hopefully you'll be cured and my teeth will be gone.

[raaven.livejournal.com]

*nods* Always better to tackle that sort of thing when you're feeling your best.

Or at least, not when you're feeling your worst.

Strength to you.

Re: No Lying...

[tsarina.livejournal.com]

At a certain stage, we all need to be independent from the feelings and beliefs of our parents.

I don't necessarily think that being independent means that a parent's rejection or denial isn't going to hurt like hell on some level. Sometimes it is a big deal, and it doesn't matter if you're still influenced by your parents or not.

Culture

[keith418.livejournal.com]

I realize that a lot of my values and positions about this may be cultural. I'm a WASP and I think there tends to be more distancing in WASPy families than in others. My wife's family is Chinese, for example, and there is a lot more family-interaction expected than in a WASP family. Consequently, what your family, and especially what your parents, thinks about you is a much bigger deal. At the same time, as I was telling my wife this morning, she knows when she has to draw a line with her mom – and her sister solved a lot of these problems by living further away.

I realize that suffering your parents’ disapproval can hurt like hell. But age is also an issue to remember. I don’t expect teenagers to be able to handle parental rejection better than people in their 30s. Once you reach a certain age, you need to develop a certain amount of emotional distance from your parents and their opinions – especially if they are the kind of parents who are homophobic or are going to be negative about something like this.

I had a conversation once with my own mom about the different ways my brother and I dealt with parental approval. He feels, ironically given this thread, that my parents have rejected him because he is a fundamentalist Christian and GOP voter. He craves their approval and doesn’t feel like he gets it. I, on the other hand, don’t care that much either way and feel like I have their approval – maybe because they admire my independence. What I want for rm is that she be strong enough not to let her parents get to her one way or the other – beyond a certain point. Once you are past a certain age, you should be able to cope better with your parents – even if, or especially if, they haven’t been able to mature enough to cope with you.

[coyotegoth.livejournal.com]

From what little you've said about your parents, they do seem to try to sweep stuff like this under the rug. Would waiting until you're feeling better, and then sending a message asking whether or not they read the letter (and have anything to say about same) be a good idea?

Re: ?

[baldanders.livejournal.com]

"Politically incorrect"? Why drag that in? The fact that people are disagreeing with you doesn't mean they are being "politically correct," which is what you are implying. "I'm sorry if I'm being politically incorrect" is one of those phrases that subtly dismiss the disagreer while attempting to claim a veneer of brave truth-telling for one's own thoughts. Just go ahead and engage with what people actually say, and leave the motives out of it.

Anyway. People's interactions with their parents are widely variable, and not really subject to a hard set of rules. I don't know how well you know rm, but she doesn't seem to me to be asking for advice on dealing with her parents: just reporting what's going on, and the difficulty of it for her. I assume there is very likely no position regarding her relationship to her parents that she hasn't already considered at a lot more length than I can for her, and with a lot more information. Maybe that's just me.

[darkadaptedeye.livejournal.com]

i realized that i've also been reading your journal for a few years now. and i'm sure that it is frustrating to not only do you have to deal with this issue from your parents, but that you also have to deal with patronizing judgements from people who feel the need to be condescending about your being an only child as well as caring about your relationship with your parents.

my life, your life, and almost everyone else's life and relationships are different from everyone else's in one way or another. it's a shame other people feel the need to step in and be critical and claim authority, as if an expert in your life, at a time when delicacy and respect are more called for.

in all matters, you have my best wishes.

Re: Culture

[rm.livejournal.com]

I think the culture point is extraordinarily valid.

I also feel it's important to note that locationally, I'm in one of the two best places in America (and arguably the world) to do what I do (and I don't have a work permit to be doing it abroad). And since LA has more disadvantages than advantages for me right now (which may change, but not in the forseeable future), for better or worse, physical distance between my family and I is largely illogical, as beneficial as it might be.

This is a purely tangental response to where this discussion has meandered to, but I felt it was worth noting, and better here that distracting from what I hope is some degree of clarity later (which, because of my evening plans, actually probably means tomorrow).

[rm.livejournal.com]

actually, I'll probably take my mom to lunch -- but after I can eat food again. I still have no idea what's wrong with me!

Re: Ann Landers

[rm.livejournal.com]

The cock remark is really funny. Just so you know.

Locations

[keith418.livejournal.com]

Yes, I realize that, to do what you want to do, you pretty much have to be in either NYC or LA. And, frankly, I wouldn't wish LA on anyone. I must say that I have, while reading your LJ, frequently thought that living far, far away from your parents for an extended period of time would do you both a world of good. For one thing, they might learn to appreciate you more for who you really are.

Each family dynamic can have limitations - and benefits. When I was first exposed to my wife's Chinese family, I thought the parents had way too much power and control over their kids - and I thought the lack of, what I considered to be, appropriate boundaries to be somewhat frightening. For example, my wife’s family would be overjoyed if we moved in with them. On the other hand, my father would be utterly appalled at that prospect. Over time, though, I have seen how some of the benefits of their closeness play out. I would be the very last person to suggest that my mother-in-law hasn’t treated me like a son. I am extremely grateful for all their warmth and caring. At the same time, my wife has seen some of the strengths of my dad's approach - which is a lot more relaxed.

A guy I read once observed that the filial piety that is part of Confucian cultures keeps the people in them from growing up. Worship your parents, he thought, and you'll stay a child forever. I mentioned this to my wife, fully expecting her to denounce it, and was surprised when she agreed with this caustic assessment wholeheartedly.

Re: Culture

[magnetgirl.livejournal.com]

Dude, speaking as an out and out WASP with members of her family that could serve as the model for the film "Ordinary People", I think you're missing the point. As much as rach and ANYONE who's queer would like a reaction (hopefully positive) from their rents-she deserves and ACKNOWLEDGMENT of her admission at the VERY least. This isn't even ABOUT "guess who's coming to dinner" yet. This is about a very big admission being made. About needing at least some sign that even if not liked, supported or understood, that admission has been HEARD. Everyone needs to be heard by their parents if they have any kind of relationship with them at all. That's not living your life for their opinions, or basing your happiness/sanity on them-that's BASIC.

Re: Ann Landers

[tsarina.livejournal.com]

Hahah, sorry. It was a cranky day at work.

Believe Me

[keith418.livejournal.com]

I want rm's parents to be respectful and cool. I want them to be supportive and I want them to be caring and intelligent. I don't want them to be merely "tolerant" - I want them to be happy. I want them to acknowledge her courage.

But, that said, I think we all need to reach a point where our parents' opinions - especially if they can't do the above - just don't matter all that much.

[sola.livejournal.com]

completely unrelated, but buy this or the gabrielle dress while she's still got them. they're on sale. http://www.daintyanddirty.com/shop_pages/secretgarden.html

[orobouros.livejournal.com]

Would this be his Qur'an, or his Book of Mormon? :)

Re: Ann Landers

[hangedwoman.livejournal.com]

OK, my main problem here is you using that quote here at all; it doesn't apply and is more than a little out of line. The statement is about using appropriate boundaries when sharing information between parents and children when it comes to sexual details. It applies to statements such as, "My girlfriend and I are fucking so much we're hardly getting any sleep," not "I have a girlfriend."

Yes, I've read your subsequent comments, but they're not what my comment here is about. By unapologetically using that quote and saying it applies here, you're essentially saying that anyone who feels they need to come out to their parents is being immature. That's not OK.

[rm.livejournal.com]

Man, once I see how taxes work out, that and some of her smallaccessories are at the top of my list.

[winterknight.livejournal.com]

I'm stuck on your dad having written a Bible and writing a sequel. ...am not getting my head around it.

[rm.livejournal.com]

Yeah. Welcome to my world.

Coming Out

[keith418.livejournal.com]

I think people should come out to their parents. But they need to look at the reaction they feel to their parents' reactions. If rm's parents were these amazing, deep people who astounded her on a daily basis with their wisdom and insight, then I could readily understand anyone being crushed by their negative reaction. But, on the other hand, if you've already dismissed them as hopeless on so many other issues, then why should their reaction matter so much about this?

I think rm cares too much about what her parents think and do. I feel that I much, much less critical of my father than rm is about her parents, but his opinions, much as I love him and respect him, don't matter to me as much. This is also true for other people I know regarding their parents. At a certain age, you have to go and let your parents live their own lives – just like they have to “let go” of you and let you go off to live your life. If you want your parents to love you unconditionally, then you have to be prepared to love them unconditionally back. If you demand that your parents not judge you by their values and standards, don’t you have to agree to do the same with them? rm is hardly uncritical when it comes to her folks, is she? If she feels the right to lay down her judgments on them, don’t they have the right to lay down their judgments on her? We can all agree with rm’s values and all disagree with her parents’ values, but the point about reciprocity still hangs there.

Whatever the outcome of this particular scenario (and I am still hoping rm's parents rise to the situation and blow us all away with their coolness and support), I think it might be a good opportunity for rm to take stock of why their reactions, opinions, and behavior still matter that much to her.

Re: Coming Out

[hangedwoman.livejournal.com]

OK, what you're doing here is assigning "good" and "bad" values where they're not appropriate, basing what you call "good" on what is the norm for you.

There is nothing inherently unhealthy about having a close relationship with one's parents or other family members; nor is there nothing inherently unhealthy about not having a close relationship with them. And as with any people we have a close relationship with, there is nothing inherently unhealthy about caring about their opinion of us. Actually it's quite healthy and normal to care about how we affect the other people in our lives. It's only when we let those opinions or our percpetions of what those opinions would be adversely affect our ability to live our lives that it becomes unhealthy.