unreal

[rm]

While by and large society is preoccupied with thinking about female bodies, body image and body ideals, we sure do suck at discussing it.

Probably because it's not very catchy to say something like "it's good for your body to be the size it wants to be at its healthiest and good for you to enjoy the flesh you're living in to the utmost." Especially when most of us don't get to be as healthy as we want -- I'm not, and I'm one of the lucky ones.

Plus, it's much, much catchier to say stuff like "real women have curves" or "there's something wrong with you if you're attracted to fat/thin/boyish/thick/curvy/WHATEVER chicks" or to rag on people for being a size 4 or a size 24.

You know what? It all sucks. And I know men don't escape either -- on height and hair and width of shoulders, timbre of voice and god knows what else, but I can only tackle so much at once.

I will be the first to admit that I enjoy privlege by being a skinny chick. I get that. I really do. But being skinny doesn't make me less female and being boyish doesn't make me less deserving of desire and none of it, if I'm lucky, have sense, and work hard, should effect my sense of worth as a person.

This is one of those things that I want to write eloquently about, but know I probably can't without pissing someone off in same way I really don't intend.

I shouldn't have to always follow up any discussion of my size with "but I have celiac disease, it's not like I try to look like this." I also shouldn't have to deal with people, including medical professionals, assuming I have eating disorders because that's somehow easier than actually speaking to me.

I look the way I look. I happen to like it. It's probably a product of my celiac disease, other medical stuff and the fact that I danced 8-hours a day during large chunks of my childhood and work out like a maniac now because fencing owns me. I hope that I enjoy myself enough in general that I'd like the way I looked even if I were an entirely different size. I don't know. Given our society, I can't imagine I'd get away angst free. Hell, I barely, barely get away angst free now. After all, I'm making this post.

Because I believe in the fictional life, the self-created life, the multiple life, I'm not sure I know what a real anyone is. I'm certainly not going to sit here and say what a real woman or man or person is. I'm happily a bit fictional, but it isn't because I wear a size four.

We should be able to talk about our bodies without judging each other. We should be able to talk about what we desire without judging each other (who here has heard or intuited some version of "I want you so bad, but my friends wouldn't understand?" or been told that they can "do better" because the person they loved and thought was sexy beyond all sexy wasn't mainstream hot?).

I'm very happy in my very strangely fluid life. And if you don't think I'm a real woman, that's all well and good. But it's not because of my goddamn size.

Comments

[nisaa.livejournal.com]

Oh boy. Well, you didn't piss me off. But then again, I'm someone who doesn't gain weight easily. I don't have to work out much to keep my shape and that makes some people envious.

I also get the impression that people think I can "do better" if I'm attracted to larger women (or men too). And that's just bullshit. I realized a long time ago from observing a slender female lover that cellulite is just a fact of life but it didn't make her any less attractive in my eyes.

When I lived in Boston, I was told that I was too fat to be a skinny model and too skinny to be a fat model so I just gave it up. My body is the way it is. And I'm glad that I had enough self respect then to recognize the bullshit instead of starving myself to be someone I wasn't.

And then there's the four and a half years I lived in Los Angeles, the most weight obsessed city in the nation (yours is a close second). EvenI fell prey to looking in the mirror to see how flat my tummy was. That just ain't right.

Yeah, it's a difficult subject you've raised here, but I hope other people will be able to talk about it because I think it's very necessary.

[sociallyawkrd.livejournal.com]

I also was not pissed off. Assuming I am insignificant enough that my big corn fed girl comment was not the inspiration for this. If it was (because that is how self centered I am) it is certainly not what I meant to imply, but just I have big arms. I have big everything in a way so I can't test drive a product for my kids arms. But again I am hoping I am insignificant enough that the comment wasn't even a blip.

I am ok with my body, but like most things it took some amount of aging to get there. Like many women having a child helped. Even at my thinnest I was curvy like an olive on a matchstick. So I just know that is my body shape and you know I am ok with that. I don't plan to be dating again while I am young enough to be bothered by my body and my husband and I just want to be healthy for each other so it helps I don't feel like I have to fit into an ideal that is just not going to happen for me. I know this is just a combination of the body I genetically have, my love of cake, potatoes and noodles, and my dislike of any exercise. It isn't a statement of my worth no matter what drunk frat guys say.

[rm.livejournal.com]

Ah no. It was started because someone pointed me to a rant about how the new American Idol winner isn't fat (true) despite media noise to that effect. The rant included a long thing about how men need to figure out what's wrong with themselves if they find women who look like twelve-year-old boys attractive.

[delchi.livejournal.com]

This hits me in so many places that you might as well have swapped the rapier for the over/under shotgun filled with bird-shot. ( Not that you were attacking me, but that you hit on many many subjects close to me )

I've said this so many times that I'm sure it's well understood - but for the benefit of the few who have not met you in person - it has never been about size , dress, costume, or preprogrammed look that has determined who and what you are - it has been the projection of self that hits a person about five minutes before you come within judgment distance of any other qualities. I only half joke about you being the next step in evolution of the human being , wherein the self and the projection of self is the alpha of expression and anything else is just window dressing. " Here comes a person ... " not a fashion statement, not a size,not a style nor an image prequalified and pidgeon-holed by external expectations of a world gone mad on itself.

Ive had SO many medical fights lately - from the nurse who told me ' honey the secret is to stop eating dessert ' ( something I have not done in years ) to the assumption that I'm double forking it at every buffet in town eight days a week. I've run the gamut from polite to explaining that physical damage was about to happen if the course of conversation did not shift.

As for the rest, let me quote my ex :

" You are the most brilliant soul I have ever met. You are the most emotionally supportive person I have known in my life outside of my father. I feel safe, and loved with you. I just need to be with someone more physically attractive. "

[coridan.livejournal.com]

Going along an entirely different track -

The reason it seems that north american white culture is obsessed with body weight and curves is because of the intimate relation between weight, social class and marriageability. Media projects to us an image of the ideal body form, which is often times contradictory, based on context. Being heavy seems both a combination an indicator of moral fiber and a subtle signal as to economic productivity - for example, being heavy seems to be an indicator of little self control and being a lifestyle choice - while being extremely thin, while more favorable, seems to still be an indicator of overall mental health with it's associations with various eating disorders. All of this seems to be a set of signals for woman to abandon ownership of their bodies - the only set of factories in the world which can produce that one engine of political and economic power that leaders lust after more than anything else, labor (ie, labor being people. Control how people are produced and raised, you control their labor.)

Our cultural surround gives us so many cues, it's hard to deprogram yourself. As a male, while I no doubt don't get it as hard concerning my weight as a woman would, I do get it. What I struggle to do is to look past appearances and worry about health and personality issues instead. For the most part, it's not been a problem with me - I've had fantastic relationships with heavy and thin girls. But, again, its hard to look past the knee jerk reaction, and making a judgment over the long term based on what people do and say is harder than judging based on a 3 minute first impression. The erroneous idea seems to be that together people will make the effort to make good first impressions, and that people who don't match common media impressions of attractiveness lack the wherewithal to make themselves attractive and are therefore lazy and stupid. This is, of course, blatantly untrue.

denchi, I don't know if I should salute your ex for being straight or sock him for being horribly rude. At least the jerk is out of your life, hopefully - someone who is so self absorbed where looks is the main criterion for them isn't worth your time. I'm sure you look great!

[stupid-drawings.livejournal.com]

Preach it!

I know I'm this size because of my own actions. I was a size 5, but then I got out on my own and didn't take good care of myself. I'm starting to and I'm starting to go back down. I'm starting to settle into my own lifestyle finally. Only took a few years :P

Besides, I'm a lot more personality-minded, so weight is just weight.

[lupintonks85.livejournal.com]

I think you and all women have the potential to be drop dead beautiful and it has nothing to do with size. Wither you weight 90 pounds or 240 pounds it has to do with you personality. One person might be generally attracted to skinny people or curvey people but still fall for someone who dosen't meet their personal standards hotness because it's not about the body size it's about them.

[beemerbike.livejournal.com]

Americans don't discuss anything that could be sensitive. It's not just bodies and body types and weight. It has reached a serious problem with personal health issues. It's always been said men never go to the doctor. But do you realize women are more likely to die of a first heart attack then men because women tend to blow-off symptoms. Or this whole HPV crisis. If parents were parents and were actually teaching children about healthy sexuality and not leaving it up to a sterile school health class (providing your school still has one due to funding cuts) this would be less of an issue. The HPV vaccine sounds like a great thing, but it's almost as if the gov't is attempting to mandate once again how we approach a health problem.

Weight in this country is beyond a dangerous level for most people. Whether you are too thin or over weight the food one can get from any typical establishment is full of garbage in most cases. Research is starting to show that disorders like allergies and celiac are directly related to the modified animals and grains we eat. Personally, I've noticed a huge decrease in my reactions to dairy when we switched to organic and raw milk. Not to mention cutting out non-sprouted bread and the 300 carbs a day the gov't wants me to eat resulted in losing around 25#.

Learning how to approach and talk about these subjects are the only way people can get on track to make improvements.

[kalyx.livejournal.com]

"Research is starting to show that disorders like allergies and celiac are directly related to the modified animals and grains we eat. "

Please don't interpret this as argumentative, but what research has linked health issues to dietary causes. I ask because as an immunologist, I try to keep up on literature, but there is so little solid research that links diet to any disease that I'd like to know where you may have read this. I know of one researcher who is looking into commonly used dietary suppliments for immune-modulatory properties in animals, but I see little of this sort of work when I flip through recent issues of Science or Nature.

[beemerbike.livejournal.com]

I can't say for sure where I heard this first. But when I was in college I was diagnosed with allergies and the physician I was seeing at the time told me to avoid GMO foods as much as possible because it was likely increasing the severity of my attacks/symptoms.

[roadnotes.livejournal.com]

"who here has heard or intuited some version of 'I want you so bad, but my friends wouldn't understand?' or been told that they can 'do better' because the person they loved and thought was sexy beyond all sexy wasn't mainstream hot?"

We've had, briefly, the discussion about when "striking" translates into "attractive in a way I'd not really thought about before and it's broadening my perpectives," and when it means "sexy, but my peer group would laugh at me if I said so," right? I've gotten a lot of the former, but enough of the latter that I know it's there. And yeah, I could "do better" and go with someone taller than I am -- that's the one I get in subtle ways now: "Doesn't it bother you that you're so much taller than Soren?" (No, it bothers me that I've just shifted you from "rational person" to "idiot" in my head.)

I get tired of being one of the point people for "people are people, and there is no one definitive healthy/sexy body," but it's going to keep happening all our lives, I think.

[ladypeculiar.livejournal.com]

"I get tired of being one of the point people for "people are people, and there is no one definitive healthy/sexy body," but it's going to keep happening all our lives, I think."

Heh, here-here!

[cookie-cm.livejournal.com]

I don't understand the purpose of this focus from others. Depending on my mood, I either tune out, inore, walk away, or decide to dig my foot in for grounding and indulge with sarcasm. As I get older, I love my everchanging body, and have fun dressing the evolving shape of it. It's the endless costume change, who wouldn't love that. I relate to your feeling the need to explain being a certain size. I am a 4/6, and too often receive comments, "Well your so skinny', and my favorite, "You with those sassy clothes". Am I supposed to wear sacks to make your world more comfortable? What was I thinking in chosing clothes that fit well and flatter me best. I love looking attractive, feeling good about myself. Should I hide this? In my sarcastic, vengeful world, I enter the next day with a cinch belt. Part of my physique is natural, part is due to the crazy fact that I like to excersize and be physically active.
I have found that location can be a factor. When I lived in Cleveland, this mindset just didn't seem to exist, yet whe I would visit PA., I was suddenly very aware of my size, my large hips out of sync with my small breasts. It's a combination I really think looks great for me - but seemd to stand out as not quite right for others, but typically this was coming from women.
Here in Wisconsin, well, this is where am deluged on a daily basis with comments on my thin waist, etc.


ok, I'll stop....grrrrrr

[kalyx.livejournal.com]

I hate assumptions due to size. I too sometimes have an eating disorder, because I am slim and probably mostly because I am slim and queer. If I truly loved myself, I'd be bigger or f I was a feminist, I'd stop conforming to mysogynistic beauty standards. But I love my body. I use it a lot for a lot of things. I dance, I rock climb (only plastic rocks tho ;) ), I lift weights, and I walk to work each day. I also work in a laboratory that doesn't permit food or drink and I work long hours, meaning sometimes I miss meals on days I am too busy to leave the lab to eat. So I tend to be a size 6 without trying and a size 4 when I get really caught up in physical activities. But I am lucky because I never get the eating disorder accusation from my doctors. Instead, I get pity because I have a scary chronic disease (MS) despite my living symptom free 90% of the time. (I don't know why celiac doesn't get this treatment too)

I have to admit that I too am guilty of jumping to conclusions about people based only on their size. My mother is obese and I hold this againt her. There is also a woman that works out at the gym I go to that I assume is anorexic and I wonder why the gym doesn't do something to stop her or try to help her. But I have no evidence that she has an eating disorder. All I know is that she is in the cardio room early in the mornings and is so thin that I can see her skull. She is also losing her hair and looks very sick. But I have never spoken to her (that would be just rude, right?) and I have no way of knowing whether her looks are due to a serious medical problem. Maybe the exercise could help her heal? I have serious medical problems and exercise helps mine.

And if I knew you in person, I might end up being one of those annoying people trying to feed you sandwiches! although only gluten-free ones. ;)

[xuenay.livejournal.com]

Well said.

heron61 said that he picked up from you an expression going along the lines of "If there are men and women, then I'm a man. If there are men, women and transsexuals, then I'm a man. If there are men, women and something else, then I am something else." I just popped in to ask, do you mind if I steal it for my own usage, for when I finally get around revamping the "about me" section of my website?

[rm.livejournal.com]

Hiya. Go right ahead. For me it was "woman" but yeah, I think a lot of peopel who saw that started using it for their own grouping/identity."

[xuenay.livejournal.com]

Okie, thanks. :)

[marzipan-pig.livejournal.com]

Thank you for posting this, it's a big issue for me.

[taarnagh.livejournal.com]

I have been a size 8, 10, 12, 14 and 16. Actually once I got all the way up to 18. Currently I'm a 14. In the realm of things 12 is where I start being happy with myself and 8 is freaking fantastic, because I happen to be quite slim at 8. My body is not built to be anything smaller and look good and I am fine with that, after many years of being not o.k. with that and lusting after that "boyish" figure, because it is what was sold to me and I bought into it for too long.

There is much I love about my body at any size. There is much I love about women's bodies at any size. I love the diverseness of how we are all built and how fantastically it looks on anyone who will just wear themselves with some comfortability.

There are two things I hate about being "larger" people including doctors telling me I'm fat. The doctor thing actually bothers me the most. My cholesterol is good as well as my blood pressure, thyroid, glucose levels, etc. You name it my tests say I'm in good shape, but my doctor tells me I have to be at a weight that puts me at a size 8 or smaller. I truly don't understand that math.

Then there is me not being able to talk about my extra weight. People either just freeze up or deny I have extra pounds on me if I talk about it. As if anybody admits in front of me, the truth of what I am saying and we all might explode. Hello people! I am not my body and when we all deny me the right to talk about it truthfully it makes me feel invisible!

I have long said that the first thing I would do with too much money is start a national billboard and commercial campaign called _This Is What a Woman Looks Like_ and it would have beautiful pictures of all of my friends, in all of their beauty. The tall, thick, robust ones, the short ones, the skinny ones, all of them together for a portrait of womanhood.

[hangedwoman.livejournal.com]

You're right in that it all sucks and we suck at discussing it. Even those who are somewhat more evolved can't easily talk about some of the more negative aspects of it; it's much catchier to talk about how beautiful we are no matter what our size. And we ignore the reality of survey results that say the majority of people would rather lose a limb than be fat.

In my case the ugly truth is that when it comes to my size, I hate myself. Probably the majority of the time I think that I'm disgusting and repulsive. It's very difficult for me to look at photographs of myself without bursting into tears. Sometimes it seems the only way I can leave my apartment and go out into public is through a process of strenuous denial. But I'm not supposed to talk about that, because if that's how I feel about myself as a fat person, than how must I feel about other people who are fat? If I actually put it out there, no one cares about how hard it must be for me to feel that way about myself; they only care that I might not be entirely accepting of them. It doesn't matter that those feelings might in fact be another source of self-loathing.

I may be asking for it by making this kind of comment in a public post, but what the hell.

[rm.livejournal.com]

No, I think it's an entirely reasonable thing to talk about. I certianly didn't right this so a whole bunch of thin people can go "oh yeah, I hate that too."

the myth that as women we should all be on teh same side, about everything, all the time, drives me nuts. but when it comes to "supposed to's" we really should all be on teh same time. No tyranny of anything has ever done any woman any favours.