(no subject)

[rm]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/07/us/07aging.html

Fascinating article on the harm of addressing seniors with elder-speak.

But what really struck me? The toll of words like "sweetie" and "dear" that the article notes are also used for children in a way that can also be disrespectful and isolating. What the article doesn't note: is that these words are used in the same way on women of all ages, and yes, it makes us angry and uncooperative too.

Comments

[brewsternorth.livejournal.com]

Indeed, and then it gets lauded as "gallantry", or merely laughed off. Not exactly cool.

(Not a well-traveled American, me - is this more of a Southern thing or is it pretty much awful all over the 50?)

[rm.livejournal.com]

It depends. I actually find it less disconcerting when I am in the south as it feel more ubiquitous and less a statement of "I want something from you" or "I am telling you where you stand." Up here, where I hear it a lot, it feels a hell of a lot more like a weapon.

[nex0s.livejournal.com]

When I get called "sweetie" by a man with whom I'm not in a relationship (come to think of if, none of them men I have a r'ship with call me sweetie, but!) I usually call them "SweetCheeks" right back.

Makes 'em blush. And gets the point accross.

N.

[demotu.livejournal.com]

I find such "endearments" are also really a city/country cultural thing. In the city, they're almost never used, and when they are - particularly by older men - they seem deliberately condescending. In my boyfriend's town of 9000, however, where I spend a lot of my weekends, all the women (at the store, coworkers, etc) uses "sweetheart" and "honey" and "dear" and "love", whether or not they're addressing a man or a woman, and most men use it with women in the same sort of way ("here's your change dear", or "thanks for the help, you're a love"), so it doesn't seem nearly as out of place for me.

[rm.livejournal.com]

No one would EVER use it towards a man here. In the south, sure. But not up here.

[demotu.livejournal.com]

In New York? Yeah, no one would use it to a man in my comparatively tiny city, either. And in (small town), a man wouldn't use it with another man - but pretty much every woman I see my boyfriend interact with calls him by some such endearment (and he them, especially when he's interacting with them in a professional, law-enforcement capacity, which is pretty interesting.)

[rm.livejournal.com]

Also, just in New England/Mid Atlantic in general. In the South sure. But here it's a pretty strictly gendered thing regardless of the population size, I think.

[fuyukodachi.livejournal.com]

I don't know. I get honey'd a lot.

[rm.livejournal.com]

Really? Maybe it's Manhattan. Also you, sir, have puppy dog eyes.

[redstapler.livejournal.com]

1. Yes, this exactly.

2. Most of the people quoted in that article are younger than both of my parents. What the hell? I can't imagine anyone missing the air of confidence, competence, and general "get-the-hell-out-of-my-way"-ism of both of them.

Also? Every time someone says, "John McCain will likely die within the next four years," I actually hear, "Your dad is five years older than McCain AND WILL DIE SOON."

::snarl::

[newsbean.livejournal.com]

I think a huge part of the McCain thing is his age combined with the fact that his health history puts him at risk for dying really soon. I'm not sure it's just the age. (At least, that's the way I've been understanding, but perhaps I am too generous...)

[lysserum.livejournal.com]

I've seen people refer to previous cancer incidents and something about his medical records being kept private. I don't recall the exact details, but I read something a while back about the media being given limited access to them and then being cut off.

[holyschist.livejournal.com]

Yes, I think the health history is a huge factor--malignant melanomas are nasty, plus he has all the POW damage. (Frankly, I also think he shows possible signs of dementia, but that's another issue....)

[feyandstrange.livejournal.com]

As a thirtysomething in a wheelchair, I have to point out that one's likelihood of getting talked down to shoots up with every noticeable or known sign of disability.

My dad - five years younger than McCain and in similarly good health - is between dental surgeries at the moment, and has had trouble speaking lately due to a lack of teeth. Add that to a cane for a temporarily strained knee, and people suddenly stopped seeing him as "handsome healthy elder" and started speaking to him slowly and stupidly as if he'd had a severe stroke. This despite Dad's ferocious glare, otherwise healthy-looking body, and the upright carriage of a vet who will happily beat you up with his cane if you piss him off.

I got a lot more baby-talk when I used a walker than when I used a cane, and a little more in the powerchair. If I have to take the manual chair (and be pushed, mostly), people ignore me and speak to whoever's doing the pushing an awful lot.

Many of the people in this article are in elder care facilities or are disabled, and the article was also focusing on how medical and care personnel have a very bad tendency to sweet-talk the poor dears in their care. That's a real and serious problem. The WalMart clerk calling me "sweetie" instead of "miss" is a nuisance; my twenty-year-old physical therapist "sweetie"ing me when she should have listened to me tell her that she had her damn anatomy wrong is another thing entirely.

It's also a serious issue because patients who complain or get cranky about this kind of condescending treatment will get labeled as "uncooperative patients" and ignored more, as well as possibly losing privileges. Whacking that therapist with my cane, tempting as it was, would have probably meant no more physical therapy for me.

[lbuckley.livejournal.com]

When my son was recovering from his medical trials last winter, he spent a month in a rehabilitation facility. About half of the patients were elderly. By far, most of the staff were kind, professional, and talked to all of the patients as though they were people.

However, I'll never forget the day I was reading while my son was in therapy on a different floor, and one of the assistant physical therapists was walking an elderly woman around, as she needed practice walking, but assistance doing so. The therapist insisted on talking to the woman as though she was a five year old child, in a really condescending, sing-songy voice. (The therapist herself must have been 20). I remember rolling my eyes at the conversation in general, and then I overheard this bit:

"And what did you do before you retired?"

"I was a physics professor at X university."

"Oh, isn't that sweet, you were a teacher."

Why that woman didn't throttle the therapist, I have no idea.

She probably thought

[haya.livejournal.com]

it was because the therapist was stupid and failed physics.

[awe-struck.livejournal.com]

The tone makes all the difference. Hon or Dear said with empathy or caring it is one thing. Said in the Chevy Chase 'Jane you ignorant slut' tone it is quite another. (and yes, I know I am showing my age by referring to early SNL)

[browneyedgirl65.livejournal.com]

Lots of regional variation, I think. I never hear these endearments around here (CA) except of course to children and probably also to the elderly, so those would definitely come across as insulting. However, in travelling in the south and in Britain, I hear "dear" in the former and "luv" in the latter *everywhere*, women to women, women to men, men to women (but not men to men tho *sometimes* I've heard "boy" or "guvna") so it seems to reduce the overall impact when directed at children or the elderly.

It's a complex issue, certainly. I do love the woman quoted in there who said she sprinkled profanity in her speech to get people to knock it off :-).

As far North as Baltimore

[haya.livejournal.com]

I hear the word Hon, with people I don't know.
I probably hear these things more than most people because some find it hard to learn my name. Methinks it's overthought, and should be addressed person to person.

[holyschist.livejournal.com]

To study the effects of elderspeak on people with mild to moderate dementia, Dr. Williams and a team of researchers videotaped interactions in a nursing home between 20 residents and staff members. They found that when nurses used phrases like “good girl” or “How are we feeling?” patients were more aggressive and less cooperative or receptive to care. If addressed as infants, some showed their irritation by grimacing, screaming or refusing to do what staff members asked of them.

I think this is true, based on my interactions with my dad, but at the same time--well, in a case like that, the doctors SHOULD be talking to the children--maybe not in front of the patient, but my dad, who seems fairly functional in most conversations, can't remember what he did yesterday, much less his medical history. And even when he was lucid, he didn't pay a whole lot of attention to his physical state because he lives in brainland--he had wives to talk to doctors for him.

I think a LOT depends on context and tone.

[tlatzomia.livejournal.com]

...

I call people "sweetie," "hon/honey," "doll," "babe," "darling," &c. I don't mean anything demeaning by it, it's just what I do. :-/ I use them more as terms of endearment, but I can see how people might be offended. As it is, I use them for everyone and try not to use them use them with people I don't know.

I have no idea why I made this all about me. :-P Carry on.


Edited for clarification.

[redwitch.livejournal.com]

I think maybe it's different in The South. I call everyone sweetie or darlin. As far as I know, no one gets angry or angsty about it. It's part of the dialect. But that may also be because I'm a woman, and maybe it's different coming from me than from a man.

[natf.livejournal.com]

Also, "hon" and "luv" in the UK. Elderly, children and all women. Ugh.

[feyandstrange.livejournal.com]

Any visibly disabled person has run into this at least once. Friendliness is one thing, disrespect and talking down to people is another.

And as others have mentioned, tone and delivery can easily change a "dear" epithet from a politeness to a degrading put-down. The difference between "More coffee, hun?" and "See here, sweetheart, the big boys don't want you in their conference rooms", or "Such a brave dear girl, smiling despite the wheelchair", is obvious with tone and inflection. But it's the latter that more people are likely to let slip out without realizing they're being offensively infantilizing.

I feel bad when I find myself calling people sweetie-dahling all too often, but it's because of my disintegrating memory making me forget people's names. I try very hard never to sound condescending when I find myself in that pickle.