the questions of our times: formality and vampires

[rm]

This, thanks to a discussion started by weirdquark. Please do visit the comments where you will learn many things including the many ways formality is structured in different languages (something my questions did not fully take into account, and I apologize for that), werewolf pack dynamics considerations, and whether there are vampires in France.

[Poll #1601631]

Comments

[kalmn.livejournal.com]

have i seen them in their underwear? if yes, informal. if no, formal.

[laufeyette.livejournal.com]

This poll wins the whole internet.

[shoiryu.livejournal.com]

My answers are basically in regards to Korean and Japanese where it doesn't matter who you're talking to -- if you don't know them well you are formal!

[trinker.livejournal.com]

ah, but at which level?

[kaythay.livejournal.com]

What's advisable depends a lot on what world you're looking at. I've seen werewolves be treated as enraged killing machines in one world and in sentient, highly organized societies in another. Advisable approach would vary drastically between the two.

That aside, I tend to use formal when I'm nervous or uncomfortable (even when I've been told to be informal). Any encounter with preternatural creatures would most likely make me default into formal speech in a panic. (Until they try to kill me, then it's cursing rather vividly.)

[azurelunatic]

Vampire: also depends on my intentions to the vampire. If my relationship with the vampire includes me killing it in the near future, I am not going to be verbally implying "You pwn me" any time soon. Respect for things one kills, yes. Submission to, no. And it depends on the grammar in question whether respectful is also submissive.

Werewolf: I know my human-pack-status: solid beta. Unless I have reason to challenge the dominance of a werewolf alpha (like, murder mystery and they're the main suspect) I'm not going to do that, but any beta werewolves or lower can make a line, because I've got a rank, dude.

Zombie: Formality is probably not going to matter. Most zombies are, well, zombies, and are not expected to regain human intelligence, or indeed, anything above a zombie cunning. Beware groups of Kellis-Amberlee zombies, as they are smarter than you think, and can use strategy in large enough packs. Still not worth busting out formal grammar.

Anything that can kill me if it wants to, without a second thought, or fuck up my life? As formal as that motherfucker wants.

[gypsylady.livejournal.com]

As a student of linguistics (back in my misspent youth) I admire your concern. As an observer of wonderful internet polls over the years, I decry your lack of blank vote.

But the former trumps the latter.

[eandh99.livejournal.com]

this makes me want to go look for vampire novels in French (my best second language) to see how they do the tu/vous distinction, with the added problem that Canada for example tends to do it differently from France. One of my pet peeves in dubbed movies, when they screw that stuff up. Be even more interesting in Spanish where you have the potential, again depending on geography, for some interesting variety in pronouns. I'm guessing "usted" for your average Spanish vampire LOL Then of course you get into grammar-based expressions of politeness, imperatives vs. suggestions vs. impersonals. Hmm, where would I find Charlaine Harris in French?

[redaxe.livejournal.com]

Here via filkerdave. If there were a fill-in, I'd surely note that by preference, I'd address the vampire from across running water, with a garlic necklace, wooden stake in hand, in bright daylight. Not that I dislike vampires, but I have this thing about retaining true life :-)

[tacky-tramp.livejournal.com]

Oh, vampires are totally "vous." I think that if I tutoyer'd a vampire, I run the risk of getting my throat ripped out.

[eandh99.livejournal.com]

oh, I dunno - depends on context. While I don't suppose anyone uses "tu" to Dracula, I would think Bella tutoies Edward, or Sookie to Bill. Yes, I read too many vampire books.

[hughcasey.livejournal.com]

And, in ALL cases, I would probably RUN.

[seawasp]

Always based on my relationship. In some, formal may be dictated simply by social position; in others, by closeness of relationship; others by both or other factors.

In English, I'd always address a vampire with the equivalent of formality unless I was very friendly with them.

[jendaby.livejournal.com]

I only say I would use a different form of address for werewolves because, hey, who's to know my neighbor isn't one? I address her informally, but I've never seen her on the full moon. There are just some supernatural creatures one might encounter in a casual environment (who knew the server at the diner was a changeling?) without even being aware.

[angstzeit.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't duzen a vampire unless they sparkled.

[beable]

Here via filkerdave, and re-linked

What comes to mind is the last verse from one of the Tom Lehrer songs (The L-Y song) that he wrote for The Electric Company:

You enter a very dark room
And sitting there in the gloom
Is Dracula! Now how do you say goodbye?
Immediately ... immediately ... immediate ... L-Y
Bye Bye!

[l33tminion]

In Japanese, there are two dimensions to politeness in grammar (okay, that's an oversimplification, but I'm keeping things brief).

One is the basic split between formal and informal language. If someone is outside of your social circle, or not particularly close, or a superior, you want to go with formal language. So desu/masu verb forms, no dropping particles, cut out the slang, etc. Speaking properly is a must. (Assuming the vampire in question is not a close friend or family member.)

There's also additional ways to be extra polite with grammar and vocabulary, using lofty (describing their actions) and humble (describing your actions) verbs, for one. How much extra formality/politeness you want to layer on depends on the situation, but given that your traditional vampire is old, dangerous, and high-class, you probably want to go high on the formality.

[trinker.livejournal.com]

How respectable is your vamp, and does he perhaps fall into "old but disrespectable" ?

How would one, in the past, have addressed an oldster of the buraku class, I wonder?

Werewolves are literally "chikusho", aren't they?

[browneyedgirl65.livejournal.com]

Best poll ever :)

[jarien.livejournal.com]

Very interesting to think about!

I find it best to be polite and formal with anyone I don't know, especially those with the ability to kill me faster than I can blink. My first concern is survival, no question.

That said, I don't think I'd address all manner of supernatural species the same way, and some of it would depend on how well I knew the being in question, and what understanding I have of their cultural/species/personal expectations. And of course, whether I get a second chance at conversation!

I find nothing wrong with being aggressive in a pack setting, if that is the expected behavior to prove that I'm not prey. I wouldn't have a problem being quiet and more passive if appearing to challenge a were-leopard would bring on an attack. I could toss insults at a pixie if they were of a mind to slander my parentage.

Individual case basis.

[anotheranon.livejournal.com]

Formal, upon first acquaintance. Then let the supernatural creature decide.

How do aliens factor in?

[darkrosetiger.livejournal.com]

In the Blood Histories verse, it depends on both the vampire and your relationship to him/her. In general, formality is safest, because if you come across as excessively formal to a vampire born after 1950, she'll just smile and say, "Please, call me $FIRSTNAME." If you come across as disrespectful to a vampire born at the height of the Roman Empire, you'll probably get verbally eviscerated. And if you come across as disrespectful to the oldest sentient on Earth (around 4,000; he's not really sure) you may get literally eviscerated.

[con-girl.livejournal.com]

I think culture matters more than grammar (and grammar mattered most to me of your choices). For example, even though both French speakers in Quebec and France have formal "vous" and informal "tu" they are not completely parallel in use (and the young and old in Quebec also have different expectations).

[lyorn.livejournal.com]

IMO, "based on relationship" covers also "different formalities for different types or not". I'd always put situation ahead of principle when it comes to how to address [whatever].

Also, in German, the formal address it not necessarily more respectful. It's just more distanced. Not using the appropriate address on purpose is disrespectful. While assuming familiarity, especially from someone of higher status, is bad manners (and trouble if they are acting in an official fuction which does not encourage familiarity), calling someone with whom you are on familar terms "Sie" suddenly is slamming a door in their face.

Many groups always use familiar address -- families, obviously (my cousin-in-law who I never met before can still expect the familar address), some subcultures, students, many hobbyist clubs and some workplaces. If I were introduced to a vampire, werewolf, ghostie or ghoulie, the context in which that happened would determine the form of address.

So while I said "on grammar", it comes down to relationship (and manners) again.

In my vampire story cycle, vampires are not "out", i.e. they do not tell anyone of their nature unless that person has a need to know. They are usually addressed in distanced/formal mode, because they are strangers. (One of the protagonists, however, addresses all vampires on familiar terms unless she is really cross with them. Being near-immortal and having acted as midwife to the first vampire in the world makes her consider the whole bunch "family".)

[green-maia.livejournal.com]

This is fascinating! Would you mind if I link?

[rm.livejournal.com]

Nah, go for it!